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Subject: Question about Logic


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Original Message 1/11             18-Nov-05  @  03:08 PM   -   Question about Logic

Kmotr

Posts: 6

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Hi everyone...

Here is my situation. I'm new to recording, don't have any software or a soundcard yet. Trying to get as much information BEFORE I spend money.

I have an MPC and S950 sampler that I need to be able to record. There are some programs that have been suggested to me .... Logic, Live and ProTools. It seems like many people with a hardware set up similar to mine incorporate software programs as a composing tool, not just as a recorder. They say it gives them more flexibility, but I'm not really sure how. Is it for further sound shaping? Is it easier to record a few bars of a MPC beat and create a song in the software?

I read something very interesting about Logic:

" I set up a PC system recently for some guy who only had an MPC & was doing hiphop, and he was saying how you cant get jay-z or whoever style beats any other way than an MPC so that's why he bought it.

He didnt know the groove teplate bit of Logic tho, so i sampled a 1-bar rhythm loop from a jay-z cd he had into logic, trimmed it just right, then filtered out the bottom-end and created a midi quantise template from the audio loop working off the remaining top-end audio... hats/shakers etc.

then we filtered out the top-end and created another quantise template from the bottom-end groove (kiks & snare/claps, bass etc)

then I did him a quick new 'jay-z' style/feel beat from scratch, using new drum samples/battery VSTi & a new bassline using the ESM synth in logic by applying the created quantise to the new patterns

he was totaly gutted cos it only took about 2 minutes & had exactly the same groove but with a totaly different drum & bass pattern"



I'm really new to this stuff and would like to know if I understand what it's saying. The person basically sampled a part of a song and turned the audio into MIDI. I thought it meant that you could substitute the drum sounds for your own or the bass notes for your own, but the pattern would remain the same.

But then it says that "it only took about 2 minutes & had exactly the same groove but with a totaly different drum & bass pattern". How come the new track had different drum & bass pattern? I thought the pattern would be the same, like in the original song.

As I said, I'm new to this and I'm obviously missing something. Would you guys mind helping me out and explaining this process to me?

Any tips on a workflow or how to integrate the MPC + S950 combo with a software program would be great.

Thanks a lot.



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Message 2/11             18-Nov-05  @  04:25 PM   -   RE: Question about Logic

k

Posts: 12353

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well, the 'groove' or quantise which is created from the audio part is unrelated to actual midi notes.... if u use a sequencer nd create a pattern you can apply a certain quantise to those notes, and that same quantise can be applied to any midi pattern... that's how quantise works, it's UN-related to the actualk pattern, it ONLY relates to the distances between notes at intervals such as 16ths... a 16th quantise for example will push or pull notes OFF the straight 16th sub-beat and either push them forward a fraction or pul them back a fraction... etc

so what the Logic process works is it analyses the audio part and just as it would when making slices if you want to chop up the audio loop 'Recycle' style, it analyses the transient peaks in the audio loop... If you have edited a drum loop so it loops perfectly at a tempo of say 130 bpm when placed on your sequencer track and looped, then you have a 130 bpm loop - Logic anaylses the loop starting at beat-1 and looks to se where the peaks are along the loops linear length, and it looks to see how those peaks line up compared to a straight quantise division based on say 16th divisions... now

Now... if you had a drum loop of a drummer playing a simple beat holding down a 16th hi-hat pattern in the beat, the drummer MIGHT be slightly dragging the hat pattern in places to add swing... so when Logic analyses the loop, it says: "Aha!... the hi-hat is on the beat for the 1/4 note divisions, but is behind the beat for some of the 16ths"....

anyways, the quanrise is created by analysing the audio peaks... this is then stored as a quantise setting

logic quantises on the fly... in other words, if you make a straight 16th hat pattern, and then apply a swing quantise to that pattern, it plays with a swing, but, if you turn OFF the quantise & open the pattern and look at the 16ths, they are exactly on the beat as when you made the pattern... in other words, logic doesnt actualy shift notes in the pattern when quatise is applied, it plays the pattern THRU the quantise and they come out on playback with whatever quantise has been applied to that whole midi Track or individual midi part or a group of midi parts.


so, do you get it?... the quantise doesnt tell you WHERE the notes must be in a pattern; it simply applies a quantise to ANY midi pattern... that way, you can steal a groove from a cd loop and apply that 'feel' to your own new pattern.


thats the theory of it, not the actual method tho. That I can show you, but it'd best be done with pictures or as a video tutorial. Sadly i have exams coming up until the end of the month and into early december, so i dunno i'll have time to do that before the second week in december... mebbe i can, i've got to check a few things about the exams next week to set my schedule

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 3/11             18-Nov-05  @  06:11 PM   -   RE: Question about Logic

Kmotr

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Thank you so much. What a great explanation!!!

Is this function exclusive to Logic or can it be found in other programs?

Now let's say I like the "feel" of a certain drum pattern in a song. I make my own drum pattern and would like to apply the quantize setting from the song. since it's a audio CD, the tracks won't be separated. Would it still be possible to apply the method you described? Would Logic be able to determine the quantize settings for the drum pattern only, since it sees the whole song as one audio file? I hope I make sense. If not, I'll try to word my question better.

I appreciate you offer to help out with an actual tutorial, but I don't even have Logic yet. I'd be great to see it though at some point in the future, maybe in a few months.

Would you mind giving me your opinion on the first part of my original post, where I'm asking about incorporating hardware samplers / sequencers with software? What program do you think would be best to use .... Logic, Live or ProTools?

This is incredibly helpful.

Thanks again.



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Message 4/11             19-Nov-05  @  12:02 AM   -   RE: Question about Logic

k

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well that depends on the genre... if dance, then usualy the top-end will be easily distinguishable and so will the bottom and mid, it's a style of music that does tend to have very discernable primary freq bands (lo/mid/tops), however, you can apply an insert eq to better isolate the band you want to steal the groove from

once you have the sample loop trimmed and added to your audio track and the tempo is set so that when looped, the drumloop plays in a nice smooth loop, then you can add an insert eq and drop all the freq's below 5k for example and zone in on the top end hats/shakers... the audio groove quantise bit actualy sees the signal AFTER any insert eq so that is wonderful cos no other freq bands get in the way of the groove-quantise analysing the audio loop...

even in quite busy music the drums (kik/snare) will be easily visible as peaks... hats might get more lost depending on the hi-end freq content going on from other instruments, so if possible choose a section of the song to to take the loop from which is not to busy with other things. However, as i say, adding in an insert eq lets you further isolate freq's so it's usualy a piece of cake to get a groove from the loop

on top of that you can choose settings in the groove quantise analyser such as the sensitivity and the number of 'slices' logic will take as the root quantise (wether to show you the peaks based on 16, 8 etc to the bar/loop)

one thing this is brilliant for btw is re-enforcing real live drum loops with midi parts to add 'extra hats power' if you decide the hats on the audio loop arent dominant enuff and eqing the hats in the loop so they are louder causes the whole loop to sound too harsh

also adding compliemntary patterns to re-enforce audio loops cos you can get the same groove easily to add to your midi overlays

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 5/11             19-Nov-05  @  06:52 AM   -   RE: Question about Logic

Kmotr

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Thank you for further clarification.

One thing I'd be interested in is your opinion about the whole hardware + software integration.

I thought I'd create the whole song in the MPC (triggering its internal samples as well as another sampler's sounds) and then I'd record the individual tracks from both boxes as audio. A lot of people say that they used to work this way, but they switched to creating a few patterns in the MPC, recording a few bars of each pattern into a software program and then they finish the song there. They say it's much faster and more flexible to do it that way. What is your experience? Could you describe the way you work?

If I had a stereo (2 channel) A/D converter and recorded two tracks from my samplers at a time, could there be possible sync and groove issues? I saw quite a few people complaining about loosing the groove once their MPC tracks are recorded (in multiple passes) into a software sequencer like Logic or ProTools. Would I have to have as many channel of A/D conversion as there are individual tracks in a song?

I appreciate your help.



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Message 6/11             19-Nov-05  @  02:25 PM   -   RE: Question about Logic

k

Posts: 12353

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quote
I saw quite a few people complaining about loosing the groove once their MPC tracks are recorded (in multiple passes) into a software sequencer like Logic or ProTools


well i dont see how cos they are working with direct recordings of the MPC playing the part, so it's fixed in audio as a file and is not subject to any influence in terms of timing from Logic cos it's an audio part.

you could work like that... but for bext flexibility you want to be able to sequence and have the audio from the external hardware arriving at the PC inputs where they are MONITORED thru logic, so logic's audio output contains onboard sound (vsti synths and audio tracks) as well as external outboard audio passing THRU Logic's audio mixer - because the audio from your external midi kit is already passing into Logic's mixer and THRU, it is in the mix already as monitored audio when the audio tracks are in monitor mode (passing the inoput THRU to the output), all you need to do to grab a recording of anything is just wack the required track into record and record some of whatver is passing THRU that audio track

the point is, doing it that way (with any sequencer also, such as SX) you can setup effects in realtime for the incoming audio, apply those fx & eq etc to the incoming audio in realtime and if you go and record a part, when it plays back it';s on the same track with the same eq/level/fx and it's easier to work - working like that you are using Logic's mixer to mix your OUTBOARD as well as INBOARD sounds together... and the whole lot plays OUT of logic at the same time together.

to do that you really want a minimum 8 inputs of PC audio device, preferably more - The ideal scenario would be to have one PC input for every hardware item audio output, but that'd mean mebbe 16 or 24 physical inputs idealy which would cost a bit...

OR use a hardware mixer with 8 bus's and an 8 iinput audio device and route the hardware via the mixer Bus's to the 8 pc IN's as you choose.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 7/11             20-Nov-05  @  01:48 AM   -   RE: Question about Logic

Kmotr

Posts: 6

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quote
k wrote:

quote
I saw quite a few people complaining about loosing the groove once their MPC tracks are recorded (in multiple passes) into a software sequencer like Logic or ProTools


well i dont see how cos they are working with direct recordings of the MPC playing the part, so its fixed in audio as a file and is not subject to any influence in terms of timing from Logic cos its an audio part.


That applied only when they were syncing the MPC and ProTools/Logic with some sort of MIDI protocol (MTC, MIDI clock), because they had only 2 channel converter. Apparently, if you make the software master and slave the MPC to it, the groove of MPC gets changed. That's what they were saying.

If you don't have 24 (or whatever the number of audio outputs is) A/D channels, what are the tracking options? You named one ..... 8 bus hardware mixer, so you can use 8 channel A/D converter.

What about this method? You do all your sequencing in the MPC or SP1200 and then, I don't know if it would be possible, somehow dump the MIDI file into Logic. That way, it's the identical groove as in your MPC or SP1200. Once this MIDI file is in Logic, you could use it to trigger the sounds in the hardware samplers (S950, SP, MPC). Since the MIDI file is in Logic, there would be no need to sync Logic and the MPC / SP. If you had a really good 2 channel A/D converter you could record 2 audio tracks at a time and even run the signal through some nice hardware preamp, FATSO or whatever unit might be desired.

Do you think you would still have the groove the way it was originally created by the SP1200 / MPC or is the MIDI signal going through so many parts (from Logic through MIDI interface, triggers the sampler and goes back through MIDI interface into Logic) at this point that it would be changed a little?



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Message 8/11             20-Nov-05  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: Question about Logic

k

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well dumping the midi into the pc isnt going to do it. It wiould transfer the midi 'as-is' but it's about the hardware clock on hardware sequencers really. Hardware seq's just have the most solid clocks, pc/mac's are better now that they used to be, but still not quite as solid as hardware (some say anyways)

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 9/11             22-Nov-05  @  04:07 AM   -   RE: Question about Logic

Kmotr

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Too bad...

How do you feel about recording 2 tracks at a time and syncing Logic and the hardware sequencer by MIDI? Which one should be master? Would it be better to use MIDI clock, MTC or MMC?

Is it true that the MPC / SP groove gets changed by the software program?



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Message 10/11             23-Nov-05  @  03:06 AM   -   RE: Question about Logic

k

Posts: 12353

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quote
Is it true that the MPC / SP groove gets changed by the software program?


not if you record the mpc audio of course, if you sync'd it the mpc would be master - what you could try is sequencing a beat, and then switching off everything but the hats

then put logic in sync, hit play on mpc and record the midi data with no autoquantise on in logic onto a midi track...

open the resulting midi part and checkout where the notes sit timing-wise without any quantise from Logic... to see how they are triggering from the mpc, to see what sort of quantise IT is applying ... if you dont quantise the midi part in logic, it should when opened show the mpc's quantise/feel in theory

you could use that resulting midi part to create a quantise template ... and then try applying that created quantise to the same hat pattern on logic using a vsti drumbox and see if it sounds the same groove when you play either logic or the mpc... if that works, you could then create a quantise setting of all the mpc's commonly used grooves & apply them to patterns you create in logic's drum editor (hyperedit i use) each row in hyperedit can have a seperate quantise..

Anyways, it could work - and you can also easily grab quantise from any audio loop from a CD, so you can steal grooves from popular tracks and save 'em in logic.

*******************

as for the 'record 2 tracks at a time and sync' idea... hmmmm could work as long as you line-up the resulting audio tracks in perfect sync... i dunno if there's be any 'slip' if you sync'd logic to the mpc (with straight midi clock) and just recorded tracks 2 at a time with each recording 'take' - theoreticaly they SHOULD be in perfect sync, you could mix in audio then with fx, but it's not the same as having the midi and controller and fx all in one - ideally you want a 16 input soundcard for the pc, but you only really need stereo out for monitoring - cheapest i spose would be some a 16 channel adat card with stereo out for monitoring and 2 x BEHRINGER ADA8000 Pro-8 Digital units

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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