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Subject: Quantisation Theory

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Original Message 1/47 29-Oct-02 @ 03:50 PM - Quantisation Theory

Mr Bash

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Is the bass supposed to mirror the drums?

As in if I quantise my drum track to 16b in logic, then do I quantise my bass to 16b?

Also I find that if I quantise my drums to 16b and then try a quantisation of say 16c/16d for the percussion, it sound messy and stilted!

Is every thing supposed to be on the same swing or not?

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Message 2/47 29-Oct-02 @ 05:46 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

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you cant do it like that realy... certainly mixing up different 'swing' feels will be a mess for a drum pattern - your bass should fall exactly on the beat where it DOES fall on the beat, but otherwise, it's supposed to work empathicaly with the drums, not follow them exactly..

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Message 3/47 29-Oct-02 @ 07:18 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

psylichon

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The only thing that determines the quantize resolution for any given part is the musical lines that part is playing. If the shortest note is a 16th note (i.e. 1/4 of a beat) then that's your resolution. If you were to quantize a 16th-note part with 8th note resolution, it would move every other note and stack them on the 8th-note grid. Get me?

psylichon

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Message 4/47 30-Oct-02 @ 09:58 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Mr Bash

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Thank you for the response. However, I am still unsure as to what you guys mean.

The thing is I find the whole "groove" a bit of a mystery. I know that velocity is hugely important to groove and I do you this alot.

Generally, stuff that falls on a 1/4 or 1/8 note I leave dead on the beat. Then stuff like hats and perc that fall on the 2 or 4 16th note I put a swing on. This tends to be a 16b swing (ie 21 ticks).

However, is there not a drumming rule? Like I would say the hats are what should be what is "shaking" the most so I would of thought that you would have to put this on the most swing, like say 16d in Logic. Then the stuff like perc would want to be a bit tighter and solid so I would think that this should be a bit tighter so maybe a 16b. However, this don't work so my theory is obviously wrong.

ALso what do you mean about "the bass playing empathicaly with the drums" K?

Also, listening to my favorite tunes, it seems that the snares are coming in earlier a bit. Even the records that I have that are 125 BPM seem alot faster and I pressume this is down to pro programming. There is a real energy and a kind of "push-pull" thing going on.

Maybe I'm just hearing pumping compression but I am sure there is more to a grooving drum track then a punping stereo compressor.

Any more help would be greatly appreciated.

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Message 5/47 30-Oct-02 @ 02:35 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

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those A, B, C, D, E etc quantise 'swing' divisions cant be mixed in the same pattern is what we're saying - and the bass does NOT have to follow the drums, well not 100%.. in other words, it should 'fit' the drums, some of the bassnotes might fall on the same beat as the kik or snare, but not all the bass notes should match drum notes... but you should use the same sort of swing on the bass pattern if there is any on the drums at all.

whatever... it has to gel musicaly feel-wise... so use your ears

dont think flinging some preset quantise on stuff will make a good beat or groove for you is what we are saying i think...

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Message 6/47 30-Oct-02 @ 09:15 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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maybe not for dance, but you can certainly mix swing for listening.. i could see it working for dance as well if your swing timings weren't simultaneous, ie. your swing-hats swing on a different beat than your swing-snare. i might be experiencing some disorientation.

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Message 7/47 30-Oct-02 @ 11:12 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

espoo2

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so you dont move things on the 1/8 or 1/4 notes?
Whoops.

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Message 8/47 31-Oct-02 @ 09:52 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Mr Bash

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So that's my problem is it espo? Maybe I need to move my 1/4 notes and 1/8 notes aswell. I have tried doing this but it makes my whole drum track sound disjointed. Making music isn't as easy as it looked on the box. :-)

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Message 9/47 31-Oct-02 @ 05:10 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

espoo2

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haha...no.

I meant, *I* do that, and maybe I shouldn't.
But I probably will.

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Message 10/47 31-Oct-02 @ 05:23 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

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the george clinton/bootsie collins school sez
you come down HARD on the ONE and
syncopate everything in between. wheee!

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Message 11/47 31-Oct-02 @ 05:35 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

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why doncha post some mp3 audio of a beat which you feel has a problem - all it is is this:

yes, you can put things on ANY beat in a bar, 16th, 8th, whatever - BUt, if you had say a hat swinging at a quantise of say 16D (in Logic) and then your bassline had some notes offbeat but NOT in 16D swing, they will clash badly... you cant mix swings basicaly (or it'd be hard to make it work)

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 12/47 31-Oct-02 @ 10:01 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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i'd say if you're beginning with swing and micro note placement, it's proly best to begin just with rigid quantisation and moving a whole track (ie. one sound) forward or back before moving certain beats.

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Message 13/47 31-Oct-02 @ 11:28 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

espoo2

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interesting, xoxos...
You mean as in a "lets get acquainted with swing" mixer type thing?

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Message 14/47 02-Nov-02 @ 06:38 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

milan

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"begin just with rigid quantisation and moving a whole track (ie. one sound) forward or back before moving certain beats."

thats exactly what i used to do. trust xoxos, he knows.

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Message 15/47 02-Nov-02 @ 11:30 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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heh heh

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Message 16/47 29-Nov-02 @ 04:21 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

djjessex

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swing should be used on swing music. it does not fit dance music at all.

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Message 17/47 29-Nov-02 @ 09:01 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

psylichon

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sorry, essex, but that's just a bunch of bull.

psy

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Message 18/47 03-Dec-02 @ 11:22 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

BJT

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Essex, man the opposite is more the truth.
Swing came from Jazz, and Jazz is basically the foundation of most dance genres (house, d&b, breakz).

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Message 19/47 04-Dec-02 @ 07:26 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

psylichon

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Just to clarify, just because the main beat doesn't swing doesn't mean that no supporting players can't. Some should, at least a bit, or your track's going to be boring as shit.

psy

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Message 20/47 05-Dec-02 @ 07:49 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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I'll argue with that. That main beat shouldn't swing as you say... but at higher tempos, say hard trance, techno, psychedelic... swinging can eat up the energy! Especially a swinging beat! not so in breaks, to be sure, but driving beats are hard to fit a reasonable swing into.

I work with "essex" so i know that's what he means. But his melodies DO swing, and the basslines often do... just not the beats, and I agree, for that brand of music.

You could have been clearer, yo! hehehe

That said, swing is integral to the groove in downtempo, house etc... stuff meant to be more soulfull... (friggin adjectives!)

e

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Message 21/47 06-Dec-02 @ 03:45 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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I move stuff in 7's (ticks). ie the snare hits over 2 bars in Logic (1st snare 233, 2nd snare 233, 3rd snare 8, 4th snare 233. Open hats over 1 bar, 1st op hat 8, 2nd op hat 228, 3rd op hat 233 4th op hat 233). You can't just quantise your beats dead on, it sound WACK!!! You have to have a "push - pull" thing going on. Otherwise it sounds rigid and rubbish.

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Message 22/47 06-Dec-02 @ 05:27 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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depends on the type of music and the feel you want, yo. You can't say that there's a black and white rule here... I write breakbeats and funk as well as hard trance, and sometimes I swing and sometimes I don't! Depends on what I'm after.

e

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Message 23/47 06-Dec-02 @ 05:38 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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Well I started this thread and I write House. So the answer is in relation to the question.

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Message 24/47 06-Dec-02 @ 08:55 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

milan

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ah, so YOU are mister bash! haha!

to answer your question: quantise if it fit the groove of the track. if it doesnt, dont. thats the only rule.

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Message 25/47 06-Dec-02 @ 10:55 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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hehehe, Good answer Milan

e

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Message 26/47 07-Dec-02 @ 03:46 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Pongoid

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tou-fucking-che'

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Message 27/47 09-Dec-02 @ 09:37 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

visitor

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I only have one thing to say.. 'Whatever sounds good'. Sometimes (I myself have done so as well) the science of it all henders the innocent creativeness the could be a feeling into a sound or the other way around. Imagine being in a room with during a jam session.. Not much science going on.. more just groovin'.

Ciao.

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Message 28/47 10-Dec-02 @ 08:35 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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But "groove" is exactly the point of this thread.

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Message 29/47 10-Dec-02 @ 05:34 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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I've made groovy assed loops and bass lines that were quantized... Oh, sorry I already said that!

e

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Message 30/47 11-Dec-02 @ 09:50 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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So what you are saying is that by careful use of velocity and pumping compression, I can quantise all my beats and they will sound groovy? I don't believe it.

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Message 31/47 11-Dec-02 @ 11:59 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

bedwyr

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right, what's everyone's definition of "quantize"?

quantize isn't sticking every note to exactly 16ths (that's a guitarists/drummers definition), it's putting notes to a predefined rhythmic subposition. which could be swung, straight, laidback snare playing etc.

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Message 32/47 11-Dec-02 @ 12:02 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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Yea exactly. Are we talking about swing percentages a la MPC or more like Logic swings a la 16b,c,d, etc?

Or are we talking strict, bang on 16th note positions?

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Message 33/47 11-Dec-02 @ 06:52 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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Mine is a drummers definition (I started out as a drummer, and my stuff is primarily percussive)... sorry if I'm misusing the word...

I'm talking bang on 16th note position. And groove is often dictated more by the bassline working with the drums. It's a succession of notes... working with a beat. Swing works, and I'm not knocking it, but I'm saying that it's not necesarry for a groove to swing to be groovy! Sigh...

e

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Message 34/47 11-Dec-02 @ 07:59 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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let me take you back in my magic timeship to a land called the eighties.

all those tracks sucked!

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Message 35/47 12-Dec-02 @ 02:24 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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errata, what bpm are your tracks? Mine are always at 128 bpm. If I strictly quantise my beats it sounds sterile and generally boring! I don't believe that "GROOVE" is totally determined by the bass. Yer, its important but not the be all and end all. You HAVE to have a "push-pull" thing going on with drums. Surely?!?!

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Message 36/47 12-Dec-02 @ 03:37 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

milan

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i think the slower your tracks the more swing they need to have. could be...

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Message 37/47 12-Dec-02 @ 05:44 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't swing... just that doesn't HAVE to!

I just made a track at 113... with some pretty deep funk (I think)... bassline combined with the beat... I'll post a piece of it tomorrow and you can make your own opinion.

e

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Message 38/47 12-Dec-02 @ 09:21 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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you theorists sure talk a lot of bollox.

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Message 39/47 12-Dec-02 @ 09:29 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

bedwyr

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but it's only theoretical bollocks

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Message 40/47 12-Dec-02 @ 11:47 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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bollocks to that!!!

e

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Message 41/47 13-Dec-02 @ 01:55 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

influx

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"RE: Quantisation Theory] - [unreg'd user]
From: Steve Webster
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Date: 12-dec-02 - 02:24 pm
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errata, what bpm are your tracks? Mine are always at 128 bpm"

always?

damn bro..now THAT would be BORING

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Message 42/47 13-Dec-02 @ 09:51 AM - RE: Quantisation Theory

Steve Webster

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Errata, I 'll look forward to hearing that mate. :-)

Xoxos, if you re-arrange and re-jig the word ACID, you get A DIC. :-)

Influx, sorry but I only have enough skills to make house. Sorry for being boring. I don't pretend to have the talent to make raw songs, broken beat, nu skool breaks or funk. :-)

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Message 43/47 13-Dec-02 @ 02:52 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

psylichon

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so house has to be 128 bpm? always? hmmm.. never knew that. must be EASY being a house DJ. You could glue down your pitch sliders!

psy

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Message 44/47 13-Dec-02 @ 03:27 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

xoxos

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a- as in the latin prefix meaning from, away from, indicating opposition to

you think i suck, you ought to look at 'normal' people from my perspectives!

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Message 45/47 13-Dec-02 @ 08:16 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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xoxos on algebra... scene it in a few of the forums these past 48 hours. Much fun that, xoxos!

As I've said before... I'm a lazy bastard! Damn, sound forge only does MP3 at 64... still too high for good ol' DT... edited the track down to 3 and a half minutes, still too big for DT!

I will, when I get home, post a "snippet" over the weekend!

my apologies.

Yeah, house does pretty much stay i the 120's and most people like it in the upper 20's so give and take afe BPM 128 sounds right!

House is an art! It CAN be easy to do passable music when it's different and strange. But a great house track has to be dependable, simply and completely FANTASTIC... takes skills...

e

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Message 46/47 01-Jan-03 @ 10:28 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

djmojito

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"Yeah, house does pretty much stay i the 120's and most people like it in the upper 20's so give and take afe BPM 128 sounds right!"

This is some pretty harsh pidgeonholing for a such a wide genre.

"House is an art! It CAN be easy to do passable music when it's different and strange. But a great house track has to be dependable, simply and completely FANTASTIC... takes skills... "

And that's only for house, yea. How about pop? Is pop art?

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Message 47/47 02-Jan-03 @ 08:22 PM - RE: Quantisation Theory

errata

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I don't know if I agree. Aside from the tempo, it's hard to put a finger on what house is. There's a VAST library of reading on this site alone about genre stereotyping, and I'm not a fan of it... but I'm not a big fan of nouns at all... I still use them for communication. 128 does sound nice for house music (Obviously an opinion statement)... and when you go faster you start getting pretty "trancy"... it's all subjective...

Did I say anything about my comment being exclusive to house? We were talking about house so i made a comment about house... in contrast to strange, experimental music (which I think there's a mighty profusion of that is mediocre)... I think House is POP. And the same goes. I have a tremendous amount of respect for people that can make GOOD pop music... Paul Simon comes to mind... not always very clever and artistic but just DAMNED fine tunes!

Hmmm... Mozart, for that matter! Hehehe

PS: Thanks for picking my post apart. I'm always feel special when people pay me so much attention.

e

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