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Subject: Dorian Scale


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Original Message 1/14             10-Feb-03  @  09:06 AM   -   Dorian Scale

Dominic

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So all a Dorian scale is a minor but with a flatterened 7th, yes?



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Message 2/14             10-Feb-03  @  01:48 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Conscience

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I believe that is correct. Gonna have to go back to my theory books to figure it out, though. I wonder where I put those things?...



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Message 3/14             11-Feb-03  @  10:53 AM     Edit: 11-Feb-03  |  11:24 AM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

psylichon

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modes are easy to figure out.

Play a C scale. That's C to C with no sharps or flats. that's C Tonic. Now, start with D and go up to the next D without any sharps or flats. That's D dorian. Now go to E and play up to the next E without any sharps or flats. That's E Phrygian. And so on. F to F in the key of C is F lydian. G to G in the key of C is G Mixolydian, A to A in the key of C is A Aeolian, B to B in the key of C is B Locrian.

Now go up to D. D major (Tonic) has two sharps. E dorian has two sharps. F Phrygian has two sharps, G Lydian has two sharps. A Mixodylian has two sharps. B Aeolian has two sharps. C Locrian has two sharps.

Seeing a pattern here? Tonic, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian... it just shifts starting points while maintaining the same key.

That's why A Minor (natural minor is the aeolian mode) is the same key as C major. And that's what makes harmonic substitution so much fun and interesting. You can put a completely different chord in, and it's still using most of the notes of the original chord, so it works mood-wise.

Just build triadic chords (every other note in the scale) in a given key on the different starting notes to hear modal harmony in action. (in the key of C tonic would be CEG, dorian would be DFA, Phrygian would be EGB, and so on)

When you start noticing that these different chords fall into different categories of feeling in given key (tonic [I], dominant [V], subdominant [IV]) and that certain chords want to move to other chords (IV-V-I), then you're really getting somewhere! Just play around on the damn keyboard...

psy



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Message 4/14             11-Feb-03  @  01:41 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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Cheers Psy - thats about as much as I know with regards to theory. But another quick question - well another 2 questions really :-)

1. is that why a C major 7 leads nicely into the F chord within they key of C, cos F and C major 7 use the same notes?

2. I tend to write most of my basslines just using the root and the occassional 3rd. Is that what you do?

Cheers mate.



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Message 5/14             11-Feb-03  @  09:41 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

d

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what about the calipygian mode?



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Message 6/14             12-Feb-03  @  10:40 PM     Edit: 12-Feb-03  |  10:43 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

psylichon

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1. c Maj 7 does not have the same notes as F maj. C Maj 7 (I'm pretty sure you mean with a flatted 7th - C, E, G, Bb) leads nicely to Fmaj because of the tension between E and Bb resolving up and down a half step, respectively, to F and A (the Fmaj chord is F,A,C,). The E-Bb interval is known as a tritone interval (augemented 4th or diminished 5th) and wants to resolve to a triad... in this case F-A. You'll probably find some of this if you do a search for harmony lesson.

that's why the V7 (in the key of C, that's G7... G, B D, F) resolves so nicely up to the tonic... the tritone is resolving to a triad.

Probably the most common chord progression (at least in jazz and blues) is the ii-V-I progression (in the key of C, that would be Dmin [d,f,a] to G7 [g,b,d,f] to Cmaj [c,e,g]

Notice that the ii chord is minor (hence the lower case)... as the dorian chord always is. so is a triad built on the phrygian mode, lydian is major, mixolydian is major, aeolean is minor, locrian is minor (a weird, diminished minor)... so these are your tools for interesting basslines. Just stay in the mode of the chord you're currently in in your progression and you can go all over the place and it'll sound pretty cool.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but hopefully some of this will stick   I love to help with harmony because it keeps me brushed up on my lessons   So hook me up with any other ???s ya got

psy



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Message 7/14             14-Feb-03  @  10:45 AM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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Cheers psy! I'm gonna have more questions I'm sure after my music lesson on Saturday, so beware!!! :-)



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Message 8/14             17-Feb-03  @  12:57 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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Right, ready psy?!?

Ok I understand the above a bit better now. My music teacher was telling me that to find the relative minor of any key, just look at the 6th note of that scale and start (using the same notes) from there. Right......

as you said in the other post Am is the relative minor of C. Ok, I understand but this is gonna sound like a stupid question but anyway - why do we need to know this? If I decided to write a track in the key of C major then I know I can use triad chords starting from C, so:

c triad = major
d triad = minor
e triad = minor
f triad = major
g triad = major
a traid = minor
b traid = diminished

If Am as the relative mionr to C, uses the same notes (all the white notes)as C major, then hows this gonna give me different chords to use?

Also, all I do to make C major into C minor is to flattern the third and keep all the other notes the same, right? Well then.....

1. Does C minor have the same scale of chords sequence as C major?

2. Would the 6th note of a C minor scale be the relative MAJOR to C minor?

3. I was taught that to find a major scale, you go from the root up by tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone semitone. And as said to make it minor just flattern the third. So the last bit of the A major scale is a semitone step from G# to A right? Why when I play the A minor scale as the relative minor of C major, do I go straight from the G (a wholetone) up to A?

Sorry, I know I have set my questions out badly but hopefully you get the point. Cheers.



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Message 9/14             19-Feb-03  @  03:24 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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(sob)



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Message 10/14             20-Feb-03  @  04:02 AM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

psylichon

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sorry dude, it's been a hectic coupla days. I'm exhausted from traveling right now but I promise I will give a proper reply tomorrow. Any attempt tonight would be laughable at best.

peace...

psy



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Message 11/14             20-Feb-03  @  10:31 AM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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Psy, you are too kind. :-)



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Message 12/14             24-Feb-03  @  08:18 PM     Edit: 24-Feb-03  |  08:24 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

psylichon

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oh yeah... almost forgot  

"If Am as the relative mionr to C, uses the same notes (all the white notes)as C major, then hows this gonna give me different chords to use?"

It's all about context. When you're in a given key, each chord in the scale has a different feeling and "emotion" associated with it, based on the quality of the chord (major, minor, diminished). When you're head is centered on the tonic of a song, the chords will have their own contextual meaning in that key.

1. Well, you would do the same thing in a minor key that you do in the major key, only the root of each mode and the triad you build on it follows the minor scale now. So it would be (in C minor):

Cmin

Ddim

Ebmaj

Fmin

Gmin

Abmaj

Bbmaj

Cmin


As you can see, in the context of a minor key, the modal chords carry different qualities than they do in a major key.

2. But the VI chord (Ab maj) is not the relative major of Cmin because those scales use different notes. Go up a third for the relative major, down a third for the relative minor, if you want a rule of thumb.

3. There are several kinds of minor scales. The one that is the same as the aeolean mode is the natural minor. This follows the key of the relative major. In the example above (C min), notice that the dominant (v) chord is G min. This is a flatted 7th (the Bb in the chord is the 7th interval in a C scale, flatted... yeah, it's confusing that they always reference the major scale when descibing chords) and makes a natural minor scale.

Perhaps more popular is the harmonic minor because it gives a more powerful dominant chord with a raised 7th. Play these chords in progressions and you'll get what I'm talking about.

C,Eb,G (i)

C,F,Ab (iv)

C,Eb,G (i)

G-Bb-D-F (v7)

C,Eb,G (i)


that's the natural minor. Now try this:

C,Eb,G (i)

C,F,Ab (iv)

C,Eb,G (i)

G-B-D-F (V7)<--notice the change to major quality

C,Eb,G (i)


Composers consider the dominant chord to be more powerful when it's made major because of that b resolving up a half step to the tonic. half step resolutions are generally more powerful. But that doesn't mean it's always appropriate.

Once you learn the different chord qualities, you'll find they fall into groups of character, and that certain chords want to go to others. Then you learn tensions and all that and you can write jazz!

I really need to get out my old theory books so I can copy some important points for you in better words than I can muster.

psy



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Message 13/14             25-Feb-03  @  06:33 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

Dominic

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Psylichon, you're the man on DT at the moment. It used to be Bedwyr but nows its you! Well done (he, he, he).

I think I understand more about minor keys now and thank you for the time you have spent explaining it.

I'm only 2 months into my piano lessons now but its helped me loads. My tracks are sounding alot better from knowing just a small amount of theory.

I know it sounds a bit silly but I can just about play with 2 hands now. This weeks piano lesson homework is to learn the first bit of Phil Collins "One More Night". My teacher was saying that alot of Phil Collins stuff is actually quite simple when you break it down and alot of beginners learn Phil Collins songs.

Its in C major and it's interesting for me to see how the song works. It's all based around playing the C maj and G maj chords in the left hand and plinking away the melody with the right. Most of the song is based around just C, E and G notes in the right (the melody) and as previously said the chords in the left. The E in the right hand is always played over the top of a C maj chord at the beginning of the bar and the D note in the right always over the C maj . In one bar it also uses the F major but that's only once in the bit I'm learning.

Anyway I'll shut up rambling in a beginner fashion now and go and pratice some more. Cheers again matey!!!



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Message 14/14             02-May-03  @  02:38 PM   -   RE: Dorian Scale

younger brother

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Really great stuff Psylichon!  



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