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Subject: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit


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Original Message                 Date: 22-Sep-04  @  10:01 AM   -   Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

psylichon

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god damnit it's quiet around here.... and with a product release announcement to boot!

To me, it sounds like they hit just the areas they needed to to stay on top, as usual. Group editing means I might be able to finally use all those discreet drums tracks I've stolen from clients for the past few years...

J/k.... or AM i.....???.....




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Message 21/33             22-Oct-04  @  09:42 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

Mindspawn

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Well I've been mucking about with SPE4 for a couple of week's now. Some nice new bits, and a few bugs. The bugs aren't manifesting on every system, but on my main DAW the problem of gapping/stuttering during playback (like when you mess about with slip editing or volume envelopes) has reared its lovely head again. Version 3.1.1 had largely sorted this, not as perfectly as I would have liked (i.e., like the seamless engine of Cubase) but good enough so as I could live with it. Supposedly, cake is promising a patch to address this for version 4 by the end of this month.... we'll see.

A cool bit about 4, and what is keeping me poking at it (as the gapping issue is enough to deter a finicky client), is you can now open a project made in version 4, with version 3, a first for Sonar I think....

Some folks are also having trouble with latency settings on certain sound cards with the new version. Others are noticing bugs with slip editing of groups and track folders. Also, a handful of folks have had sync issues both with audio and MIDI with version 4. None of these last few bugs have turned up on me own DAW however, so a lot seems to depend on configuration.

As for K's issue with clip length equaling one bar and not a fragment of a bar, S4 (and 3.1.1, I think) will do it fine. You can just hit the "Groove Clip" for say, a MIDI clip that has 4 eighth notes, and "presto" a clean 1 bar loop. Also grid setting can be set for anything from measures to 64 notes in the piano roll view. In the Main track view, you can get a vertical grid, but it is limited to measure boundries.

Other good bits are mostly in the form of workflow adjustments (and most of these, like muting individual clips, track layers, track folders, freeze options, etc.) are quite nice. They've also added pan laws so that mixes done on progs like Nuendo and similiar will now sound correct when imported to Sonar (haven't tried this mesef).The audio engine is supposedly updated and supposdly better (32bit internal) but A/Bing against my older mixes hasn't impressed me. I actually can't "hear" any difference.

For what it's worth, version 4 seems spiffy, especially if they sort the bugs quickly. However, I still don't see it usurping ProTools, Nuendo, or Logic anytime soon, and given the pricetag of the full retail version ($959 for new buyers), it does make one wonder where Sonar/Cake is heading.....

Toodles



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Message 22/33             22-Oct-04  @  11:10 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

k

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quote
As for K's issue with clip length equaling one bar and not a fragment of a bar, S4 (and 3.1.1, I think) will do it fine. You can just hit the "Groove Clip" for say, a MIDI clip that has 4 eighth notes, and "presto" a clean 1 bar loop. Also grid setting can be set for anything from measures to 64 notes in the piano roll view. In the Main track view, you can get a vertical grid, but it is limited to measure boundries.


ok, but can you default clips to do this or do you have to click and set for every one of them you create?


ok, grid... cool, but i meant on the arrange-page, it already had 64th grid in edit afair - it's usual for a grid to be allowable, and after all why the hell not!!... it's no major pain to add surely!?... and usualy it'll only show smaller divisions as you zoom in which again is normal... i think they have to realise one might be fine editing with cut and paste/move etc, small divisions of bars at places like bridges and what have you.

i stell feel cake is designed for mainly USA based users who employ it as a substitute for hardware multitrack, and in that respect itr's probably very good wired up to a 2 way 64 channel adat-to-mixer bridge - great full-on metering, and the editing favours live-playing recording I think

Project-5 - underated... i REALLY REALLY feel that TwelveTones need to think HARD about the markets and would be advised to integrate P5 and sonar into a 'dance' edition for people who do mostly loop and pattern based composition - strip out the flashy "It's liek a real studio mixer" stuff, or rather dont place it so important in layout, and just take the bull by the horns and go the whole hog... P5 is actualy excellent, but i dunno if the usergroup is that big with Reason already having such a huge reputation & userbase

if they took SONAR's editing grid, tarted up the drum-map a bit and integrated those two with the P5 ability to save and manage midi clips as motifs, fills, and percussion patterns etc... then tied that in with a sort of redesigned SONAR arrange-page which would have access to the 'clips bin' to drag & drop midi clips onto the tracks if required..... add an 'Audio-bin' for recorded audio and imported clips & groove clips, again with drag & drop to the arrange-page as for P5 with midiclips... change it so that added VSTi's & DXi's go on a new 'Plugin-Track', and you programme midi notes for it ON THAT SAME TRACK... DON'T split them apart... so all notes AND controller data etc is all on one track which can all be viewed when track height is expanded in lanes





that's about it really - killer product if it's layed out right. - SONAR DANCE EDITION

hmmm - i still dont think the company has realised the potential situation they're in with the other 2 majors being eaten by corporates.


 

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws. I call it... Big Jaws!



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Message 23/33             23-Oct-04  @  01:31 AM     Edit: 23-Oct-04  |  01:36 AM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

Mindspawn

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quote
ok, but can you default clips to do this or do you have to click and set for every one of them you create?


You can default them to do so... errr, that is, Sonar will "guess" that you're doing a 1, 2, 3, etc. bar clip and "make it so".......works pretty decently actually.

quote
i think they have to realise one might be fine editing with cut and paste/move etc, small divisions of bars at places like bridges and what have you.


Agreed. Twould be nice to have the vertical grid functionality in the track view that you have in the piano roll....

As for Project 5 and Sonar... P5 will work in Sonar as a Rewire prog, but that's it. The two don't integrate nearly as smoothly as one would think or wish for....

Totally agree that if the Cake folks were interested in capturing a very volatile dance market, they'd sort things a bit differently... However, in line with what you already pointed out, Cake mainly seem interested in the "prosumer/hobbyist multitrack market", not dance producers or even upper level studio tracking ala ProTools.... Sonar just has too many glitches compared to Logic, ProTools, etc. to compete on anything resembling even ground.... and no I don't mean that the other progs don't glitch (I've seen spectacular crashes on ProTools, Logic, Nuendo, etc.), but they have a good user base as far as "pro" studios go, and they don't advertise things like "gapless audio" (as Sonar did from version 3 - and they still don't have it as well as the other mentioned progs) unless they can deliver.a reasonable facsimile thereof.... errr... just ranting, I suppose. But, it does give me pause to consider other options.... like moving to Logic, (which the new version - 7 - rocks from the couple of sessions I've sat in on....)..... hell if vegas did proper MIDI, I'd probably go that route, as for NLE Vegas has ruled.most excellently with version 5.....

Anyhoos, much agree with you K, Cake could score big in the dance market right now, IF they would sort some of the basic issues that we're harping about.....



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Message 24/33             23-Oct-04  @  11:13 AM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

k

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agreed VEGAS rocks - if it had midi... etc - I agree - the sequencer companies should look at that app - I love the ability to drag an FX from the list onto a part and it opens the editor ready to edit the fx over the time of the part

music sequencers should think of that in terms of adding INSERT FX to a track, you could drag & drop an fx from the fx-pool onto a part and it'd set that fx as an insert on the track & open

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws. I call it... Big Jaws!



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Message 25/33             24-Oct-04  @  05:53 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

Mindspawn

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Yup, me definitely digs a lot of the functionality of Vegas, both in terms of audio and video. Initially I was using Vegas (way back at version 1) just for audio, then I lost track of it for awhile, picked it back up around version 3, got into the video end of what it had to offer, and now I'm sorted with version 5, which I've been wicked psyched with for the last few months when it comes to using it as my NLE. I've had a lot of chances to compare it with Final Cut Pro, and for my way of woking, I totally dig Vegas more... Just way more intuitive and such a greater range of tweakability, especially when it comes to the video side of things.....

Ah yeah, Sonar added "better vid support too, although it's just basica functionality to be able to track a sync, not really any editing ability...

Anyhoos, yeah if Vegas could sort decent MIDI, methinks there's be another player in the multi-track market.....



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Message 26/33             09-Nov-04  @  12:07 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

sitar

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I haven't upgraded yet mostly because I've been busy getting a trip to Munich together for the end of this month. Sounds like the bomb though.



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Message 27/33             10-Jan-05  @  08:40 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

Darin

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So, did they add an audio click or not? That's always been my biggest gripe, needing to use a midi channel for a metronome...



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Message 28/33             11-Jan-05  @  05:55 AM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

psylichon

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yes they did... a kickass one. You can even use your own samples!



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Message 29/33             11-Jan-05  @  03:36 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

craig

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Yeah, I must say that I never really found the lack of a click to be much of an issue - I just set up a groove clip with a click sound on it and stretch to fit. But, I must say I really do like the addition of a metronome. I've been using it much more than I thought I would.



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Message 30/33             11-Jan-05  @  03:50 PM   -   RE: Sonar4... talk about it, damnit

psylichon

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If you ever work with odd time signature changes, the workarounds for a lacking metronome become ridiculous, though.



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