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Forums - The lounge
Subject: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
Original Message Date: 25-Sep-02 @ 03:18 AM - So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,798571,00.html
So, hmmmm now what to do? nothing? haha
So, hmmmm now what to do? nothing? haha
Message 11/29 25-Sep-02 @ 04:58 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
All this aside, what must be made clear is that full scale military action would only occur for PR and economic reasons. If the problem is in fact Saddam himself, we DO have sufficient Spec-Ops guys to do the job. He's got 2000 really good ones, we have more than twice that and they are better trained, and better equipped. Saddam is NOT stupid, but he's not what one might call altogether with it either. I have little ideas on the realities of his political o=policies, being the King of Babylon or whatever, and I don't doubt he has weapons of mass destruction, but is this guy actually trying to take over the Middle East? He supposedly invaded Kuwait because they were drilling their wells sideways into HIS fields. I'm not justifying any of these actions, but simply saying that there are a lot of pointing fingers, and nobody is really seeing what the real stories are, not even the people directly involved, so how is anybody supposed to do anything but have a PR war?
Ape
Ape
Message 12/29 25-Sep-02 @ 05:03 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
a little historical context.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0924-05.htm
not that recent history is relevant or anything. you just need to be able to recognize evil when you're told to.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0924-05.htm
not that recent history is relevant or anything. you just need to be able to recognize evil when you're told to.
Message 13/29 25-Sep-02 @ 05:19 PM Edit: 25-Sep-02 | 05:23 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
That article brings me onto two points about this war:
If our Governments were so worried about the Sadam 'threat', then why were we selling him technology, materials, information, etc., for the last ten years?
Secondly, this comes from something I read in the Guardian recently, is that over the last couple of years, Sadam has renegotiated all of his US/UK oil contracts, which are now held by the French and by Russia.
Makes you think doesn't it.
Regards.
Steve.
If our Governments were so worried about the Sadam 'threat', then why were we selling him technology, materials, information, etc., for the last ten years?
Secondly, this comes from something I read in the Guardian recently, is that over the last couple of years, Sadam has renegotiated all of his US/UK oil contracts, which are now held by the French and by Russia.
Makes you think doesn't it.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 14/29 25-Sep-02 @ 08:26 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
i think it's only fair that saddam have as much uranium as his playmates, jamey.
Message 15/29 25-Sep-02 @ 09:09 PM - Strait from the horse mooth
Link shows comment made by CIA regarding French and Russian Oil Contract, hits hotting to be a good trade war.
Message 16/29 25-Sep-02 @ 09:17 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
i found some radium once when i took apart a smoke detector. my mom freaked.
Message 17/29 25-Sep-02 @ 10:00 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
STOP THIS INSOLENCE OR I WILL LEAVE!
Message 18/29 25-Sep-02 @ 10:09 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
[image file]
er.... He's an intelligent guy... I trust him..
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 19/29 25-Sep-02 @ 10:16 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
from the Ellis Island speech...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/transcripts/bush_text091102.html
Quote:
"The attack on our nation was also an attack on the ideals that make us a nation. Our deepest national conviction is that every life is precious, because every life is the gift of a creator who intended us to live in liberty and equality."
So, how does sponsoring state terrorism fit into that...as is the case in Israel? Does one actually believe that life is indeed precious if you purposely circumvent means to resolve conflict in a non-violent manner?
Quote:
"More than anything else, this separates us from the enemy we fight. We value every life. Our enemies value none, not even the innocent, not even their own."
Once again, how does that pan out in regards to the application of our foreign policy abroad? Seems that's not the case. What's the answer? BOMB THEM! doesn't sound like someone that values life to me.
Quote:
"We are joined by a great coalition of nations to rid the world of terror. And we will not allow any terrorist or tyrant to threaten civilization with weapons of mass murder."
Well, isn't that special? Seems that there's very little support for the pending attack on Iraq. "Threaten civilization...." doesn't the very existence of WMD threaten the very existence of everyone. I find this retarded. We have the largest cache of Weapons of Mass Destruction around. The largest nuclear arsenal....ask anyone who knows about Fort Dietrich Maryland. That's where that nasty batch of Anthrax was cooked up...right here in the good ol' USA. Seems we might need a good inspection too. Kofi....get on that!
Quote:
"We have no intention of ignoring or appeasing history's latest gang of fanatics trying to murder their way to power. They are discovering, as others before them, the resolve of a great country and a great democracy."
Here's another. Shouldn't we be held up to these same standards? PINOCHET for fucks sake! Or the Colombian death squads that were just awarded 41 Billion in military aid. Which was frozen at one point cause Congress found that the money was going to right wing factions that killed thousands of peasants, clerics, and organizers. Nothing's changed, and we know where that money will end up going.
Quote:
"We fight not to impose our will, but to defend ourselves and extend the blessings of freedom."
That's a good one too. "...Extend the blessings of freedom" huh? but "we fight not to impose our will"? Okay...so how is it that we are going to go to war with Iraq to force a governmental change, and yet not impose our will?
Now the speech to the UN General Assembly
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7737-2002Sep12.html
Quote:
"We created a United Nations Security Council, so that – unlike the League of Nations – our deliberations would be more than talk, and our resolutions would be more than wishes."
Quote:
"America stands committed to an independent and democratic Palestine, living beside Israel in peace and security. Like all other people, Palestinians deserve a government that serves their interests and listens to their voices. My nation will continue to encourage all parties to step up to their responsibilities as we seek a just and comprehensive settlement to the conflict."
OHH okay! My bad...I must have misunderstood. I thought that funding a nation that's hell bent on killing most and displacing the rest of an entire population would be in contradiction to what was stated in those passages. We support a country, Israel that scoffs at the UN all of the time. The only country that's thumbed it's nose at the UN more often is the US.
Quote:
"To suspend hostilities and to spare himself, Iraq's dictator accepted a series of commitments. The terms were clear: to him, and to all. And he agreed to prove he is complying with every one of those obligations."
Now that sounds strikingly like what the UN has been telling Israel for years...and yet look at Jenin and Ramallah. Yet there are still occupational forces in Gaza and the West Bank.
Quote:
"In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities – which, the Council said, "threaten(ed) international peace and security in the region."
Is that so. Well Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967 states, "withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in recent conflict" and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." So how does supporting a government that disregards the UN resolutions for 35 years play into the greater scheme of things...ohh wait lets not think about that.
Quote:
"This demand goes ignored. Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human rights found that Iraq continues to commit "extremely grave violations" of human rights and that the regime's repression is "all pervasive." Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating, burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape. Wives are tortured in front of their husbands; children in the presence of their parents – all of these horrors concealed from the world by the apparatus of a totalitarian state."
hmm? "Nicaragua's north western neighbor, El Salvador has a far more sadistic recent past. Roberto D'Aubuisson, "ARENA party founder" and "organizer of infamous squads with names such as the Secret Anticommunist Army (ESA) and La Mano Blanco (white hand)" was trained at a special school in Fort Benning, Georgia. There he learned "counterinsurgency strategies and tactics, psychological operations, torture and assassination" (Imperial America). With this knowledge he trained his combine in these same terrorist acts. After D'Aubuisson's downfall, the offspring's of his hard work began a more violent approach to their attacks, "beating infants against rocks, hanging women by their feet with their breasts cut off and the skin of their face peeled back so that they'll bleed to death, chopping people's heads off and putting them on stakes." (What Uncle Sam...22). " Tax payer money supported these bastards.
Quote:
"Iraqi dissidents abroad are targeted for murder. In 1993, Iraq attempted to assassinate the Emir of Kuwait and a former American President. Iraq's government openly praised the attacks of September 11th. And al-Qaida terrorists escaped from Afghanistan are known to be in Iraq."
"....and a former American President." doesn't he mean Daddy?
Quote:
"U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
Quote:
"United Nations inspections also reveal that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard, and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons."
Scott Ritter seems to believe otherwise. And frankly I'm gonna believe someone who's actually stepped foot in the country being spoken about.
http://truthout.com/docs_02/09.10D.ritter.iraq.htm
Quote:
"In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq's commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely."
actually, Clinton pulled out the inspectors...they were not kicked out.
Quote:
"The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of U.N. demands with a decade of defiance."
I can think of two or three other countries that have done so as well.
Quote:
"We want the resolutions of the world's most important multilateral body to be enforced."
sure we do. That's why we continue giving Israel 3 Billion a year...cause we want to see these resolutions adhered to.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.htm
Quote:
"If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans and others – again as required by Security Council resolutions."
It appears that it was conveniently left out that the Kurds were gassed from US helicopters with US supplied GAS.
dissonance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/transcripts/bush_text091102.html
Quote:
"The attack on our nation was also an attack on the ideals that make us a nation. Our deepest national conviction is that every life is precious, because every life is the gift of a creator who intended us to live in liberty and equality."
So, how does sponsoring state terrorism fit into that...as is the case in Israel? Does one actually believe that life is indeed precious if you purposely circumvent means to resolve conflict in a non-violent manner?
Quote:
"More than anything else, this separates us from the enemy we fight. We value every life. Our enemies value none, not even the innocent, not even their own."
Once again, how does that pan out in regards to the application of our foreign policy abroad? Seems that's not the case. What's the answer? BOMB THEM! doesn't sound like someone that values life to me.
Quote:
"We are joined by a great coalition of nations to rid the world of terror. And we will not allow any terrorist or tyrant to threaten civilization with weapons of mass murder."
Well, isn't that special? Seems that there's very little support for the pending attack on Iraq. "Threaten civilization...." doesn't the very existence of WMD threaten the very existence of everyone. I find this retarded. We have the largest cache of Weapons of Mass Destruction around. The largest nuclear arsenal....ask anyone who knows about Fort Dietrich Maryland. That's where that nasty batch of Anthrax was cooked up...right here in the good ol' USA. Seems we might need a good inspection too. Kofi....get on that!
Quote:
"We have no intention of ignoring or appeasing history's latest gang of fanatics trying to murder their way to power. They are discovering, as others before them, the resolve of a great country and a great democracy."
Here's another. Shouldn't we be held up to these same standards? PINOCHET for fucks sake! Or the Colombian death squads that were just awarded 41 Billion in military aid. Which was frozen at one point cause Congress found that the money was going to right wing factions that killed thousands of peasants, clerics, and organizers. Nothing's changed, and we know where that money will end up going.
Quote:
"We fight not to impose our will, but to defend ourselves and extend the blessings of freedom."
That's a good one too. "...Extend the blessings of freedom" huh? but "we fight not to impose our will"? Okay...so how is it that we are going to go to war with Iraq to force a governmental change, and yet not impose our will?
Now the speech to the UN General Assembly
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7737-2002Sep12.html
Quote:
"We created a United Nations Security Council, so that – unlike the League of Nations – our deliberations would be more than talk, and our resolutions would be more than wishes."
Quote:
"America stands committed to an independent and democratic Palestine, living beside Israel in peace and security. Like all other people, Palestinians deserve a government that serves their interests and listens to their voices. My nation will continue to encourage all parties to step up to their responsibilities as we seek a just and comprehensive settlement to the conflict."
OHH okay! My bad...I must have misunderstood. I thought that funding a nation that's hell bent on killing most and displacing the rest of an entire population would be in contradiction to what was stated in those passages. We support a country, Israel that scoffs at the UN all of the time. The only country that's thumbed it's nose at the UN more often is the US.
Quote:
"To suspend hostilities and to spare himself, Iraq's dictator accepted a series of commitments. The terms were clear: to him, and to all. And he agreed to prove he is complying with every one of those obligations."
Now that sounds strikingly like what the UN has been telling Israel for years...and yet look at Jenin and Ramallah. Yet there are still occupational forces in Gaza and the West Bank.
Quote:
"In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities – which, the Council said, "threaten(ed) international peace and security in the region."
Is that so. Well Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967 states, "withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in recent conflict" and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." So how does supporting a government that disregards the UN resolutions for 35 years play into the greater scheme of things...ohh wait lets not think about that.
Quote:
"This demand goes ignored. Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human rights found that Iraq continues to commit "extremely grave violations" of human rights and that the regime's repression is "all pervasive." Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating, burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape. Wives are tortured in front of their husbands; children in the presence of their parents – all of these horrors concealed from the world by the apparatus of a totalitarian state."
hmm? "Nicaragua's north western neighbor, El Salvador has a far more sadistic recent past. Roberto D'Aubuisson, "ARENA party founder" and "organizer of infamous squads with names such as the Secret Anticommunist Army (ESA) and La Mano Blanco (white hand)" was trained at a special school in Fort Benning, Georgia. There he learned "counterinsurgency strategies and tactics, psychological operations, torture and assassination" (Imperial America). With this knowledge he trained his combine in these same terrorist acts. After D'Aubuisson's downfall, the offspring's of his hard work began a more violent approach to their attacks, "beating infants against rocks, hanging women by their feet with their breasts cut off and the skin of their face peeled back so that they'll bleed to death, chopping people's heads off and putting them on stakes." (What Uncle Sam...22). " Tax payer money supported these bastards.
Quote:
"Iraqi dissidents abroad are targeted for murder. In 1993, Iraq attempted to assassinate the Emir of Kuwait and a former American President. Iraq's government openly praised the attacks of September 11th. And al-Qaida terrorists escaped from Afghanistan are known to be in Iraq."
"....and a former American President." doesn't he mean Daddy?
Quote:
"U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
Quote:
"United Nations inspections also reveal that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard, and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons."
Scott Ritter seems to believe otherwise. And frankly I'm gonna believe someone who's actually stepped foot in the country being spoken about.
http://truthout.com/docs_02/09.10D.ritter.iraq.htm
Quote:
"In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq's commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely."
actually, Clinton pulled out the inspectors...they were not kicked out.
Quote:
"The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of U.N. demands with a decade of defiance."
I can think of two or three other countries that have done so as well.
Quote:
"We want the resolutions of the world's most important multilateral body to be enforced."
sure we do. That's why we continue giving Israel 3 Billion a year...cause we want to see these resolutions adhered to.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.htm
Quote:
"If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans and others – again as required by Security Council resolutions."
It appears that it was conveniently left out that the Kurds were gassed from US helicopters with US supplied GAS.
dissonance
Message 20/29 25-Sep-02 @ 10:21 PM - RE: So, you THINK Saddam doesn't have..
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I propose that the powerful nations have an inalienable right to bomb the shit out of anyone who doesn't do what they are told...
The oil is a co-incidence.
As was the oil pipeline through Afhghanistan and the fact that they want to extend it through iraq..
And the other pipeline milosevic was trying to build through Kosovo and thus cut out the us oil companies.
Pure co-incidence and anyone who says different is evil!
The oil is a co-incidence.
As was the oil pipeline through Afhghanistan and the fact that they want to extend it through iraq..
And the other pipeline milosevic was trying to build through Kosovo and thus cut out the us oil companies.
Pure co-incidence and anyone who says different is evil!
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