 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: SONAR - so close but......
Original Message Date: 19-Apr-03 @ 01:43 PM Edit: 19-Apr-03 | 01:46 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
ok.... this is for Mr Cakewalk - I still didnt do the SONAR2 review - why?.... well, the updates are great -
asio?.. excellent, it opens up the programme to a whole bunch of users with older machines or non wdm driver cards.
rewire? - KILLER! - this is the nail in the coffin for Logic PC users and a great tempter to switch sequencer rather than switch to mac
Drum map? - brilliant! - it had to be added....
Now add to that SONAR's OTHER great stuff, like crystal clear audio, the best metering, top midi spec's etc and all in all SONAR should be 'The One' !
however.... I feel there is a few niggles. For me, these few small issues need to be sorted out...
I STILL feel that the LACK of some of these things is caused by a predominance of non-dance making users
Now these are the things which hold me back - If I do the review it would say:
"yes, sonar2 has all this great new stuff, asio, rewire, blah blah... BUT..."
and end the review with a list of those issues...
These are the issues:
1. DROP-OUTS while editing in loop mode - ALL dance makers create music like this - we loop a 2 bar section, we add/move notes & adjust velocity & controller nodes etc etc & tweak our pattern until it grooves just right
For NON-dance making the same is true - When I do a rock/song track, I always get the guitar down to a click/basic beat... Then loop a section and while looping I go into drum-edit and tweak the drum pattern until it grooves right... then copy that across the song length - Then I go in and add rolls and create join sections and also create my main chorus pattern etc.... I ALWAYS do this by looping a section of a few bars to concentrate on tweaking the drum or bass pattern etc
Now SONAR has this audio DROP-OUT glitch when editing - NO OTHER SEQUENCER DOES THIS!!
Because, ONLY SONAR does this of ALL the sequencers (including Fruity & Orion etc) it makes SONAR appear to be bugged - you just DON'T expect this or get this in a modern sequencer
Ok THAT is the big killer.... I couldn't adopt SONAR while this problem exists - HOURS sometimes DAYS of loop editing would become a nightmare with this continual audio glitching
Now on to other more MINOR issues - whilst MINOR compared to the drop-out glitch, these other issues I feel ARE VERY important... Not just to a newcomer to the sequencer, BUT especiualy to users who might cross-grade!
1. NO ABILITY TO CHOOSE KEY COMMANDS - ok SONAR has got key commands... BUT THEY ARE RESTRICTED! - SONAR tells you which keys you CAN use... you CANNOT choose!!
Now for example, I have a multimedia qwerty board - Nice!... and I LIKE to assign the STOP/PLAY/FWD/REW commands in the s/w host sequencer to those dedicated buttons... But I can't do it with SONAR!!
I like to assign certain functions to key commands - sadly not ALL menu commands appear to be listed either -
MY SOLUTION: Give ALL menu item dialog panels a LEARN BUTTON - so, lets say you open one of the midi dialog menu items via the text menu's - the box/panel opens - what a joy it'd be IF that same panel ALSO had a 'LEARN QWERTY KEY' button - and I was NOT restricted to choose from a limited selection of CTRL+ key sequences - I SHOULD be able to choose a simple key command if I like - for example I would want to ASSIGN LEFT/RIGHT Loop-Point set to my L & R keys - so, the cursor is at position 9.01 - I hit the 'L' key and the left locator sets to that position - etc etc - this is the sort of simplicity we've come to expect now from s/w's like NI's synths (controller assign), Fruity & Orion etc also do this as do many other s/w's
anyways - that whole 'Key-Commands' section is too restricted -
This is made FAR WOSE for cross-grading users who might have spent years using key commands with their previous sequencer only to find they CANNOT switch to SONAR and assign those same keys to the tasks they use most frequently - this makes cross-grading a far more painful business learning a whole NEW set of key commands which might be far less intuitive due to the fact SONAR forces you to choose from a limited selection of key-commands and ALL require two bloody hands to perform in most cases due to having to use the blasted CTRL press with ALL key commands.
Or what about studio owners who are required to install & use multiple sequencer to satisfy clients - it's most important to these users to be able to assign the same qwerty keys to commands common to all the sequencers they use.
2. The DRUM MAP - Brilliant addition!! - it had to be added... BUT there is a BIG oversight - this oversight might be simple to fix, but I can't see WHY it's missing! - The problem is this:
There is NO dialog box to fix NOTE LENGTH - this is VERY important when programming drums to trigger samples because MANY users utilise midi note length to control sample trigger length - Where this problem manifests itself worst is when you open a Drum-Map WITH THE DIAMONDS for notes, and start to input notes - but the note length is fixed to 1/4 notes - then you put in some hat notes as 16ths, finaly you close the editor and view the pattern-clip on the arrange-page and see it is LONGER than the ONE-BAR you programmed because the LONg notes extend out beyond the end of the pattern - this results in scrappy pattern which then have to be RE-EDITED painfuly slowly toi adjust the note Length.
Now yes, I KNOW you CAN choose from various note lengths above the drum-map - BUt what is this PHOBIA Cakewalk has against anything smaller than a 32nd or 64th note? - there is NO BUTTON to choose 64th note - and you MAY want your note length to be WAY smaller than a 64th!! - OK so THAT is a problem - why oh why cannot you ADD a NOTE LENGTH box in the drum-map with each drum-map ROW? - OR at the top at least add a button for 64ths or better still a whole NOTE-LENGTH dialog-box that opens where you can input a note length of a 54th, or even smaller if required than a 64th !
3. ARRANGE-PAGE GRID - almost non-existant! - dragging/copying and moving pattern CLIPS around at anything except bar-divisions is a complete NIGHTMARE!! - WHY should I have to waste time zooming in each time i want to drag a clip to a division position of a bar?... PLEASE PLEASE add an option to devide the arrange-page grid into SUB-DIVISIONS - you CANNOT work on pattern-based music editing EFFICIENTLY without this sub-devided grid.... and besides... WHY ARE SUB-DIVISIONS OF BARS MISSING!!.... what's the point of NOT offering sub-divisions?... how hard can that be to implement? - and for those who DON'T want it... FINE!!... they can simply NOT use it or switch it off or use simple bar-length divisions as usual!! - so this EXCLUSION TO ME IS POINTLESS!
ALSO this leads to another question - SONAR has NODE-BASED envelope editing for FX sends, Volume, Pan, Fx & VSTi/DXi parameters - GREAT!!... but how on earth are you supposed to edit In a fast Aux-send 'blip' at exactly beat3 of a bar when NO grid divisions are there to assist you lining up the NODE with bar SUB-position BEAT XX.3.00 OR WHATEVER???? -
C'mon seriously! - I NEED to place nodes EXACTLY at position relative to the bar/clip length, and where is my visual guide?
To me this is ANOTHER reason why it is IMPERATIVE that SONAR add's BAR-DIVISIONS on the arrange-page grid - Node based editing WITHOUT a guide grid is about as pointless as trying to crop images in photoshop to a desired size with no Rullers available - No-one could do it and no-one would use a graphic's programme without a point/pica/cm grid to work to would they??!! - So c'mon cakewalk - get this feature PROPERLY finished and implemented - how hard can it be to add grid divisions and a dialog box to set arrange-page grid divisions and Snap resolution
4. CLIP SIZES - Ok - this to me is VERY important - When working on PATTERN-BLOCK created arranements - since the year dot when old atari sequencers etc ruled the earth, pattern=based music was created with bar-sized blocks (Clips) -
WHY was pattern-based music was created with exactly bar-sized blocks ???? - SIMPLE!! - because when you CUT a bar length to be SMALLER than a bar, these reduced sized blocks are simply and EASILY visible and recognisable as DISTINCTLY different in size to the normal pattern - IF a pattern ends with a sustained note which extends OUTSIDE the right-boundary of a clip, then sure, the CLIP extends.... anyways my problem is this: SONAR ALWAYS sets CLIP-SIZE to show the contents - a CLIP (pattern-block) in SONAR is never a bar-length!!!! - this results ina an arrange-page littered with different-sized blocks/clips - this is both messy visualy and confusing when moving around blocks of clips - when added to an arrange-page with NO bar divisions grid, this makes the whole editing process laborious and tiresome and you have to think about things too much -
So my request is simple - PLEASE PLEASE add an option in PREFERENCES - it would say something like this:
'FORCE ALL PATTERN CLIPS TO FULL BAR-LENGTHS' - ticking this option would force any bar which contains a partial of notes to display as a full bar-length block/clip
5. SNAP FOR DRAGGING CLIP-BOUNDARY SIZES - again this related to the LACK of an arrange-page grid.... when you try to drag a created CLIP to be a full bar-length, the SNAP is very weak... and it's impossible really to see if the clip boundary has been dragged to a proper full bar-length unless you interrupt editing to zoom-in and check because the SNAP isn't 'distinct' enuff.
also where on EARTH is the snap setting for divisions of bars? - If i want to drag a clip boundary so it ends on exactly beat 3 of the bar how on earth do you acheive this with NO bar divisions visible on the grid and NO snap??.... it's impossible almost and certainly impossible unless you zoom RIGHT IN to a very close-up zoom-in - this wastes yet MORE time.
The Arrange-Page needs a grid dialog-box where you can quickly change the divisions and snap divisions DIFFERENTLY... PLEASE add that for god's sake!
Ok there is some moans - but they are 100% realistic moans imo - My problem is this therefore - I WANT to get into SONAR - I'd LIKE the option to choose to switch platform... But every time i go to use SONAR, the glitching audio-dropouts while editing are just TOO annoying!!...
Then on top of that, I find these fundamental missing options are SUCH a hindrance, I just get irritated with the programme and regardless of HOW GOOD the rest of it is, these small oversights are so infuriating that I just give up, because to me it's immaterial how GOOD some of the features are in a sequencer when such basic fundamental issues are glaringly omitted or flawed - What is worst is that these problems are so fundamentaly simple to change - it's nothing like the work required to implement REWIRE for example or ASIO drivers or a whole drum-map
Ok... that's your lot... what do you think?... I can tell you 100% THESE issues go along way to NOT choosing asonar FOR DANCE music which is pattern-based. It seems to me that SONAR is aimed more (still) at users who record audio and mostly use midi to complement a real audio based production... acoustic and other types of rock etc would be ideal... But for music created using MOSTLY pattern-blocks...... ??
There is a few other things I'd like to see, but that's not complaints or criticism's, just rather things (a few) which could be added to make SONAR trash the competition totaly - such as... using REWIRE, SONAR will read the drum-names in RE-DRUM and they appear in the piano-roll when you assign a midi track to RE-DRUM and open the PIANO-ROLL editor to create a pattern.... BUT, what would be superb would be a button to simply switch the piano-roll to a drum-map while RETAINING those drum-names - but that doesn't seem to be possible - perhaps I missed it - But it seems a great shame that SONAR can query REASON's Re-DRUM and grab the drum-names of the actual loaded samples, but then you cannot do that with a drum-map which is designed for creating/editing drums in the first place - Did I miss a way to do this?... I hope so - If not, can THIS be implemented?? - that would be a good kudos over the competition & it would RULE!!
So - what do you think?... can this edit glitching be solved?... it has to basicalY!! - because while it isn't, it makes smaller programmes from smaller indie s/w houses like Orion & Fruity seem superior, or at the least because SONAR is the ONLY sequencer which glitches while editing it makes SONAR seem 'flawed' - NOT a good sign - The other criticisms?... they REALLY need sorting out
If all that gets sorted I'd say SONAR was the best sequencer on the market
Oh yes - one last issue/suggestion - the PATTERN BRUSH - This is yet another KILLER feature - For dance music makers it's a really SUPERB feature - my God!... the HOURS I could save having all my favourite drum hi-hat & percussions pattern and arp-pattern etc for synths available at the click & dragging of the mouse is a feature that SLAYS the competition for dance creation!!
ok.... so er... WHY IS IT SO LABORIOUS TO CREATE/SAVE a pattern?... C'MON GUYS! - seriously - why doesnt the editor in piano-roll or drum-map have a SIMPLE button labelled:
'SAVE SELECTED NOTES BETWEEN LOCATORS AS BRUSH-PATTERN'
Get THAT sorted and this feature will be super-strong - but keep it so that creating a brush-pattern takes 4 or 5 moves and lots of farting about and it weakens the work-flow - that's a suggestion i think would be WELL worth implementing!!
and again - a proper FLEXIBLE Key-Commands section would go along way to helping to solve these tweaks to make SONAR the KILLER dance application sequencer - because after all, I didn't even mention stuff like the groove-clip stuff which already is great & the fact it's video float section is the best!!
Ok... Nuff ranting - BUT PLEASE.... make this sequencer right for dance... it's ALMOST there... almost!
asio?.. excellent, it opens up the programme to a whole bunch of users with older machines or non wdm driver cards.
rewire? - KILLER! - this is the nail in the coffin for Logic PC users and a great tempter to switch sequencer rather than switch to mac
Drum map? - brilliant! - it had to be added....
Now add to that SONAR's OTHER great stuff, like crystal clear audio, the best metering, top midi spec's etc and all in all SONAR should be 'The One' !
however.... I feel there is a few niggles. For me, these few small issues need to be sorted out...
I STILL feel that the LACK of some of these things is caused by a predominance of non-dance making users
Now these are the things which hold me back - If I do the review it would say:
"yes, sonar2 has all this great new stuff, asio, rewire, blah blah... BUT..."
and end the review with a list of those issues...
These are the issues:
1. DROP-OUTS while editing in loop mode - ALL dance makers create music like this - we loop a 2 bar section, we add/move notes & adjust velocity & controller nodes etc etc & tweak our pattern until it grooves just right
For NON-dance making the same is true - When I do a rock/song track, I always get the guitar down to a click/basic beat... Then loop a section and while looping I go into drum-edit and tweak the drum pattern until it grooves right... then copy that across the song length - Then I go in and add rolls and create join sections and also create my main chorus pattern etc.... I ALWAYS do this by looping a section of a few bars to concentrate on tweaking the drum or bass pattern etc
Now SONAR has this audio DROP-OUT glitch when editing - NO OTHER SEQUENCER DOES THIS!!
Because, ONLY SONAR does this of ALL the sequencers (including Fruity & Orion etc) it makes SONAR appear to be bugged - you just DON'T expect this or get this in a modern sequencer
Ok THAT is the big killer.... I couldn't adopt SONAR while this problem exists - HOURS sometimes DAYS of loop editing would become a nightmare with this continual audio glitching
Now on to other more MINOR issues - whilst MINOR compared to the drop-out glitch, these other issues I feel ARE VERY important... Not just to a newcomer to the sequencer, BUT especiualy to users who might cross-grade!
1. NO ABILITY TO CHOOSE KEY COMMANDS - ok SONAR has got key commands... BUT THEY ARE RESTRICTED! - SONAR tells you which keys you CAN use... you CANNOT choose!!
Now for example, I have a multimedia qwerty board - Nice!... and I LIKE to assign the STOP/PLAY/FWD/REW commands in the s/w host sequencer to those dedicated buttons... But I can't do it with SONAR!!
I like to assign certain functions to key commands - sadly not ALL menu commands appear to be listed either -
MY SOLUTION: Give ALL menu item dialog panels a LEARN BUTTON - so, lets say you open one of the midi dialog menu items via the text menu's - the box/panel opens - what a joy it'd be IF that same panel ALSO had a 'LEARN QWERTY KEY' button - and I was NOT restricted to choose from a limited selection of CTRL+ key sequences - I SHOULD be able to choose a simple key command if I like - for example I would want to ASSIGN LEFT/RIGHT Loop-Point set to my L & R keys - so, the cursor is at position 9.01 - I hit the 'L' key and the left locator sets to that position - etc etc - this is the sort of simplicity we've come to expect now from s/w's like NI's synths (controller assign), Fruity & Orion etc also do this as do many other s/w's
anyways - that whole 'Key-Commands' section is too restricted -
This is made FAR WOSE for cross-grading users who might have spent years using key commands with their previous sequencer only to find they CANNOT switch to SONAR and assign those same keys to the tasks they use most frequently - this makes cross-grading a far more painful business learning a whole NEW set of key commands which might be far less intuitive due to the fact SONAR forces you to choose from a limited selection of key-commands and ALL require two bloody hands to perform in most cases due to having to use the blasted CTRL press with ALL key commands.
Or what about studio owners who are required to install & use multiple sequencer to satisfy clients - it's most important to these users to be able to assign the same qwerty keys to commands common to all the sequencers they use.
2. The DRUM MAP - Brilliant addition!! - it had to be added... BUT there is a BIG oversight - this oversight might be simple to fix, but I can't see WHY it's missing! - The problem is this:
There is NO dialog box to fix NOTE LENGTH - this is VERY important when programming drums to trigger samples because MANY users utilise midi note length to control sample trigger length - Where this problem manifests itself worst is when you open a Drum-Map WITH THE DIAMONDS for notes, and start to input notes - but the note length is fixed to 1/4 notes - then you put in some hat notes as 16ths, finaly you close the editor and view the pattern-clip on the arrange-page and see it is LONGER than the ONE-BAR you programmed because the LONg notes extend out beyond the end of the pattern - this results in scrappy pattern which then have to be RE-EDITED painfuly slowly toi adjust the note Length.
Now yes, I KNOW you CAN choose from various note lengths above the drum-map - BUt what is this PHOBIA Cakewalk has against anything smaller than a 32nd or 64th note? - there is NO BUTTON to choose 64th note - and you MAY want your note length to be WAY smaller than a 64th!! - OK so THAT is a problem - why oh why cannot you ADD a NOTE LENGTH box in the drum-map with each drum-map ROW? - OR at the top at least add a button for 64ths or better still a whole NOTE-LENGTH dialog-box that opens where you can input a note length of a 54th, or even smaller if required than a 64th !
3. ARRANGE-PAGE GRID - almost non-existant! - dragging/copying and moving pattern CLIPS around at anything except bar-divisions is a complete NIGHTMARE!! - WHY should I have to waste time zooming in each time i want to drag a clip to a division position of a bar?... PLEASE PLEASE add an option to devide the arrange-page grid into SUB-DIVISIONS - you CANNOT work on pattern-based music editing EFFICIENTLY without this sub-devided grid.... and besides... WHY ARE SUB-DIVISIONS OF BARS MISSING!!.... what's the point of NOT offering sub-divisions?... how hard can that be to implement? - and for those who DON'T want it... FINE!!... they can simply NOT use it or switch it off or use simple bar-length divisions as usual!! - so this EXCLUSION TO ME IS POINTLESS!
ALSO this leads to another question - SONAR has NODE-BASED envelope editing for FX sends, Volume, Pan, Fx & VSTi/DXi parameters - GREAT!!... but how on earth are you supposed to edit In a fast Aux-send 'blip' at exactly beat3 of a bar when NO grid divisions are there to assist you lining up the NODE with bar SUB-position BEAT XX.3.00 OR WHATEVER???? -
C'mon seriously! - I NEED to place nodes EXACTLY at position relative to the bar/clip length, and where is my visual guide?
To me this is ANOTHER reason why it is IMPERATIVE that SONAR add's BAR-DIVISIONS on the arrange-page grid - Node based editing WITHOUT a guide grid is about as pointless as trying to crop images in photoshop to a desired size with no Rullers available - No-one could do it and no-one would use a graphic's programme without a point/pica/cm grid to work to would they??!! - So c'mon cakewalk - get this feature PROPERLY finished and implemented - how hard can it be to add grid divisions and a dialog box to set arrange-page grid divisions and Snap resolution
4. CLIP SIZES - Ok - this to me is VERY important - When working on PATTERN-BLOCK created arranements - since the year dot when old atari sequencers etc ruled the earth, pattern=based music was created with bar-sized blocks (Clips) -
WHY was pattern-based music was created with exactly bar-sized blocks ???? - SIMPLE!! - because when you CUT a bar length to be SMALLER than a bar, these reduced sized blocks are simply and EASILY visible and recognisable as DISTINCTLY different in size to the normal pattern - IF a pattern ends with a sustained note which extends OUTSIDE the right-boundary of a clip, then sure, the CLIP extends.... anyways my problem is this: SONAR ALWAYS sets CLIP-SIZE to show the contents - a CLIP (pattern-block) in SONAR is never a bar-length!!!! - this results ina an arrange-page littered with different-sized blocks/clips - this is both messy visualy and confusing when moving around blocks of clips - when added to an arrange-page with NO bar divisions grid, this makes the whole editing process laborious and tiresome and you have to think about things too much -
So my request is simple - PLEASE PLEASE add an option in PREFERENCES - it would say something like this:
'FORCE ALL PATTERN CLIPS TO FULL BAR-LENGTHS' - ticking this option would force any bar which contains a partial of notes to display as a full bar-length block/clip
5. SNAP FOR DRAGGING CLIP-BOUNDARY SIZES - again this related to the LACK of an arrange-page grid.... when you try to drag a created CLIP to be a full bar-length, the SNAP is very weak... and it's impossible really to see if the clip boundary has been dragged to a proper full bar-length unless you interrupt editing to zoom-in and check because the SNAP isn't 'distinct' enuff.
also where on EARTH is the snap setting for divisions of bars? - If i want to drag a clip boundary so it ends on exactly beat 3 of the bar how on earth do you acheive this with NO bar divisions visible on the grid and NO snap??.... it's impossible almost and certainly impossible unless you zoom RIGHT IN to a very close-up zoom-in - this wastes yet MORE time.
The Arrange-Page needs a grid dialog-box where you can quickly change the divisions and snap divisions DIFFERENTLY... PLEASE add that for god's sake!
Ok there is some moans - but they are 100% realistic moans imo - My problem is this therefore - I WANT to get into SONAR - I'd LIKE the option to choose to switch platform... But every time i go to use SONAR, the glitching audio-dropouts while editing are just TOO annoying!!...
Then on top of that, I find these fundamental missing options are SUCH a hindrance, I just get irritated with the programme and regardless of HOW GOOD the rest of it is, these small oversights are so infuriating that I just give up, because to me it's immaterial how GOOD some of the features are in a sequencer when such basic fundamental issues are glaringly omitted or flawed - What is worst is that these problems are so fundamentaly simple to change - it's nothing like the work required to implement REWIRE for example or ASIO drivers or a whole drum-map
Ok... that's your lot... what do you think?... I can tell you 100% THESE issues go along way to NOT choosing asonar FOR DANCE music which is pattern-based. It seems to me that SONAR is aimed more (still) at users who record audio and mostly use midi to complement a real audio based production... acoustic and other types of rock etc would be ideal... But for music created using MOSTLY pattern-blocks...... ??
There is a few other things I'd like to see, but that's not complaints or criticism's, just rather things (a few) which could be added to make SONAR trash the competition totaly - such as... using REWIRE, SONAR will read the drum-names in RE-DRUM and they appear in the piano-roll when you assign a midi track to RE-DRUM and open the PIANO-ROLL editor to create a pattern.... BUT, what would be superb would be a button to simply switch the piano-roll to a drum-map while RETAINING those drum-names - but that doesn't seem to be possible - perhaps I missed it - But it seems a great shame that SONAR can query REASON's Re-DRUM and grab the drum-names of the actual loaded samples, but then you cannot do that with a drum-map which is designed for creating/editing drums in the first place - Did I miss a way to do this?... I hope so - If not, can THIS be implemented?? - that would be a good kudos over the competition & it would RULE!!
So - what do you think?... can this edit glitching be solved?... it has to basicalY!! - because while it isn't, it makes smaller programmes from smaller indie s/w houses like Orion & Fruity seem superior, or at the least because SONAR is the ONLY sequencer which glitches while editing it makes SONAR seem 'flawed' - NOT a good sign - The other criticisms?... they REALLY need sorting out
If all that gets sorted I'd say SONAR was the best sequencer on the market
Oh yes - one last issue/suggestion - the PATTERN BRUSH - This is yet another KILLER feature - For dance music makers it's a really SUPERB feature - my God!... the HOURS I could save having all my favourite drum hi-hat & percussions pattern and arp-pattern etc for synths available at the click & dragging of the mouse is a feature that SLAYS the competition for dance creation!!
ok.... so er... WHY IS IT SO LABORIOUS TO CREATE/SAVE a pattern?... C'MON GUYS! - seriously - why doesnt the editor in piano-roll or drum-map have a SIMPLE button labelled:
'SAVE SELECTED NOTES BETWEEN LOCATORS AS BRUSH-PATTERN'
Get THAT sorted and this feature will be super-strong - but keep it so that creating a brush-pattern takes 4 or 5 moves and lots of farting about and it weakens the work-flow - that's a suggestion i think would be WELL worth implementing!!
and again - a proper FLEXIBLE Key-Commands section would go along way to helping to solve these tweaks to make SONAR the KILLER dance application sequencer - because after all, I didn't even mention stuff like the groove-clip stuff which already is great & the fact it's video float section is the best!!
Ok... Nuff ranting - BUT PLEASE.... make this sequencer right for dance... it's ALMOST there... almost!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 31/73 13-May-03 @ 10:22 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
K, thanks for this thread. I have recently been given the opportunity to do some editing for IBM Interactive (a BIG opportunity for me to supplement booming when it's slow by getting my foot in IBM's door as a freelancer). I may need to export the audio as broadcast WAV so I was looking into Sonar since I currently use Cubase VST but, here's the catch, it will require editting loops of audio. It looks like I'll be upgrading to SX instead. It's too bad because, overall, I'm not particularly happy with Steinberg's apparently dodgy support and developement (the forums over there are a minefield) but it looks like I have no other real option. I only hope I don't get f*!#@ed by Steiny.
I've been mulling this over for about a year now and I'm beginning to think that there is a good reason for PT being on top. I haven't minded being on the fringe regarding what everybody else uses (PT) but there does perhaps come a time...
I've been mulling this over for about a year now and I'm beginning to think that there is a good reason for PT being on top. I haven't minded being on the fringe regarding what everybody else uses (PT) but there does perhaps come a time...
Message 32/73 14-May-03 @ 01:02 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
wait wait wait... before you give up on Sonar due to k's woes... tell me what you need to do and I'll tell you if Sonar can handle it gracefully.
I have wonderful experiences with Sonar all the time, and it's great for many things. I also use Pro-Tools a lot at work, so I can compare and contrast.
I think sonar stands up very favorably to Pro-Tools, have said it before and will say it again. So what will your project entail, mick?
psy
I have wonderful experiences with Sonar all the time, and it's great for many things. I also use Pro-Tools a lot at work, so I can compare and contrast.
I think sonar stands up very favorably to Pro-Tools, have said it before and will say it again. So what will your project entail, mick?
psy
Message 33/73 14-May-03 @ 04:55 AM Edit: 14-May-03 | 04:59 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I've yet to get the specifics. It sounds like I'll be given an edited interview on video tape and several CDs of WAV files containing the unedited audio of the entire interview. as far as I can tell from the initial conversation I will need to find on the CD the audio that matches picture. I'll have to import the audio into an editor (Cubase or Sonar), cut out the parts that match picture then paste those parts into a timeline that corrosponds to the burned in timecode on the video tape. Then, and this is key, I need to export the audio as a broadcast WAV. VST doesn't do broadcast WAV but SX, Sonar and PT do.
It sounds like Sonar can't handle this kind of frame accurate editing unless I misunderstand K.
It sounds like Sonar can't handle this kind of frame accurate editing unless I misunderstand K.
Message 34/73 14-May-03 @ 05:55 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
you misunderstand K. Sonar is sample accuarate with audio, and would perform your task with ease. Seriously, I know I sing the praises of Sonar a bit much to be credible to some folk, but I only do it because I don't think it gets the respect it deserves.
Honestly, as a professional DAW user, I would CHOOSE Sonar for the project you mention. You should not worry about sample-accuracy issues.
Honestly, as a professional DAW user, I would CHOOSE Sonar for the project you mention. You should not worry about sample-accuracy issues.
Message 35/73 14-May-03 @ 12:00 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
oh yeah - SONAR could do that easily - it doesnt require looping really
I dont have ANY problems with SONAR perse I just cannot work on dance music or drum composition etc while this bloody glitch will drive me mad over a day
my other gripes are also valid I feel, but before the glicth is sorted they are academic
for what YOU want to do with the video/audio, the glitching isnt going to be an issue really
I dont have ANY problems with SONAR perse I just cannot work on dance music or drum composition etc while this bloody glitch will drive me mad over a day
my other gripes are also valid I feel, but before the glicth is sorted they are academic
for what YOU want to do with the video/audio, the glitching isnt going to be an issue really
Message 36/73 14-May-03 @ 11:09 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yeah Mick, these issues won't bother you much at all. Sonar is great. Just need to fix the glitch thing...
Message 37/73 15-May-03 @ 07:30 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Excellent. Thanks guys. Truth be told I have been looking for a reason to do a competitive upgrade to Sonar for about a year. I wish I would have taken the opportunity when they were offering it for $99.00 but, oh well. Next question, from a music perspective: is XL worth the extra money?
I'm excited, kind of giddy actually, I've heard a lot of good things about Sonar. The fact that it has always been native to the PC sounds very cool and the integration with PT is a big bonus.
What kind of a learning curve should I expect migrating from Cubase to Sonar. I worked with PT, dialog editing and FX, a few years back. I miss drawing envelopes; that was my really big gripe with Cubase. That and the fact that they seemed to be trying to emulate a hardware environment, from GUI standpoint, instead of making it look like what it is, a computer program. Sonar seems more closely related to PT's GUI.
Thanks again, you guys have been a great resource for me whenever gear decisions reared their ugly head. K, I've said it before but it is always worth repeating, DT is one of the best audio related resources on the web, dance or otherwise. I hope it continues for a very loooong time. When we're old and gray we're all going to need something to do when we're not chasing the opposite (or same, for those so inclined) sex 'round the home with our walkers and O2 bottles. ;)
Seriously, I can't say enough good things about everyone who has been involved with this site over the last four or five years, even those whose opinions sometimes infuriate me.
Cheers,
Mick
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Davies,%20Mick
I'm excited, kind of giddy actually, I've heard a lot of good things about Sonar. The fact that it has always been native to the PC sounds very cool and the integration with PT is a big bonus.
What kind of a learning curve should I expect migrating from Cubase to Sonar. I worked with PT, dialog editing and FX, a few years back. I miss drawing envelopes; that was my really big gripe with Cubase. That and the fact that they seemed to be trying to emulate a hardware environment, from GUI standpoint, instead of making it look like what it is, a computer program. Sonar seems more closely related to PT's GUI.
Thanks again, you guys have been a great resource for me whenever gear decisions reared their ugly head. K, I've said it before but it is always worth repeating, DT is one of the best audio related resources on the web, dance or otherwise. I hope it continues for a very loooong time. When we're old and gray we're all going to need something to do when we're not chasing the opposite (or same, for those so inclined) sex 'round the home with our walkers and O2 bottles. ;)
Seriously, I can't say enough good things about everyone who has been involved with this site over the last four or five years, even those whose opinions sometimes infuriate me.
Cheers,
Mick
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Davies,%20Mick
Message 38/73 15-May-03 @ 08:26 AM Edit: 15-May-03 | 08:30 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well, as I've said before, I actually prefer editing in Sonar... and I'm pretty quick in Pro-Tools, so I know which one *I* think it's possible to move faster in. And that one is Sonar. I flipped when I upgraded from Pro Audio 9 because I was amazed at how much they ripped off Pro-Tools' interface and even bettered it! Oh, the crossfades! So much better in sonar...
Never really used Cubase a whole lot, but from what I've seen, the interface is much simpler in Cake's implementation... fewer screens, fewer buttons. As long as you find Cakewalk's analogies for all your Cubasism's I think you'll be ok... they're all there.
Especially if you mainly stick to audio... I think Sonar does audio so simply and gracefully, I can't imagine wanting more in a native system. You can use very flexible "rubber-band" envelope automation, very easy and fast fades and auto-crossfades between clips, or simply arm a fader for touch automation and ride a vocal. Or set up a MIDI fader to do it. Really, any limitation you may find can be worked around rather easily, and it's getting hard to find those limitations.
As far as if XL is worth it... probably not. Especially if you already have a nice set of softsynths and plugins. Personally, I never use the XL stuff and opt for Waves and Native Instrument plugs, but that's just me. But I've heard this sentiment echoed elsewhere, too.
Good luck, hope it all works out for you.
psy
Never really used Cubase a whole lot, but from what I've seen, the interface is much simpler in Cake's implementation... fewer screens, fewer buttons. As long as you find Cakewalk's analogies for all your Cubasism's I think you'll be ok... they're all there.
Especially if you mainly stick to audio... I think Sonar does audio so simply and gracefully, I can't imagine wanting more in a native system. You can use very flexible "rubber-band" envelope automation, very easy and fast fades and auto-crossfades between clips, or simply arm a fader for touch automation and ride a vocal. Or set up a MIDI fader to do it. Really, any limitation you may find can be worked around rather easily, and it's getting hard to find those limitations.
As far as if XL is worth it... probably not. Especially if you already have a nice set of softsynths and plugins. Personally, I never use the XL stuff and opt for Waves and Native Instrument plugs, but that's just me. But I've heard this sentiment echoed elsewhere, too.
Good luck, hope it all works out for you.
psy
Message 39/73 15-May-03 @ 12:20 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well they all have node-based editing now so that can't be held up as a 'SONAR' thing - the XL? - welllllllll.... honestly?.. I'm not sure
I've said to Cakle before over and over - they need TWO versions of XL - one for dance and one for rock - The old SONAR-XL package contained loads of groove-clips - but they were all rock based. You get the dr008, but that has a bug
Cake has two issues as I see it
1. to sort out the bugs which alienate dance-makers (but having said that, when i work on acoustic or rock music projects, I ALWAYS loop a small section to work on the beat, fills etc)
2. they need to rethink their marketting/packages to entice MORE dance makers as Cake's traditional user-base to my mind is more rock people.
for me, a DANCETECH SONAR-XL package would have
1. glitch free loop editing
2. clips with fixed-bar lengths
3. clip-border dragging which snapped smartly to EXACT divisions of the bar as set in the dialog for the arrange-page
4. a proper arrange-page grid with options to set the grid to DIVISIONS of the beat
5. dr008 fixed, cos it IS an awesome drumbox for dance - probably better than battery for dance as it includes loads of VA drum modules as well as samples for endless variety
6. easy SAVING of BRUSH PATTERNS (it's too complicated right now to SAVE your own patterns and that scuppers a superb feature)
7. Included Brush-pattern content specialy for DANCE (NO rock patterns at all)
8. If sample (groove-clip) content is included, then they should be all dance loops & arps etc
9. VSTi wrapper INCLUDED. (is it now? I forget)
----------------
SONAR would then kick some almighty ass!!!
ALSO - Perhaps a special-price option to add PROJECT5 as a bundle-deal, and NOT have dr008 and the dreamstation in SONAR - so like a 'SONAR-XL-PROJECT5' bundle, where SONAR in that package comes with the extra FX (superb) but not the instruments.
I've said to Cakle before over and over - they need TWO versions of XL - one for dance and one for rock - The old SONAR-XL package contained loads of groove-clips - but they were all rock based. You get the dr008, but that has a bug
Cake has two issues as I see it
1. to sort out the bugs which alienate dance-makers (but having said that, when i work on acoustic or rock music projects, I ALWAYS loop a small section to work on the beat, fills etc)
2. they need to rethink their marketting/packages to entice MORE dance makers as Cake's traditional user-base to my mind is more rock people.
for me, a DANCETECH SONAR-XL package would have
1. glitch free loop editing
2. clips with fixed-bar lengths
3. clip-border dragging which snapped smartly to EXACT divisions of the bar as set in the dialog for the arrange-page
4. a proper arrange-page grid with options to set the grid to DIVISIONS of the beat
5. dr008 fixed, cos it IS an awesome drumbox for dance - probably better than battery for dance as it includes loads of VA drum modules as well as samples for endless variety
6. easy SAVING of BRUSH PATTERNS (it's too complicated right now to SAVE your own patterns and that scuppers a superb feature)
7. Included Brush-pattern content specialy for DANCE (NO rock patterns at all)
8. If sample (groove-clip) content is included, then they should be all dance loops & arps etc
9. VSTi wrapper INCLUDED. (is it now? I forget)
----------------
SONAR would then kick some almighty ass!!!
ALSO - Perhaps a special-price option to add PROJECT5 as a bundle-deal, and NOT have dr008 and the dreamstation in SONAR - so like a 'SONAR-XL-PROJECT5' bundle, where SONAR in that package comes with the extra FX (superb) but not the instruments.
Message 40/73 15-May-03 @ 05:59 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yeah, if you already have a nice set of mastering plugs, XL won't really do a whole lot more for you.
But, you did say that you were thinking of doing the competitive upgrade. That's how I got Sonar and I went for XL, just because it was only like $30 more in the competitive upgrade deal.
That timeworks eq is really nice and DR-008 seems like it could be the bomb, but that bug k mentioned seriously sucks.
But, you did say that you were thinking of doing the competitive upgrade. That's how I got Sonar and I went for XL, just because it was only like $30 more in the competitive upgrade deal.
That timeworks eq is really nice and DR-008 seems like it could be the bomb, but that bug k mentioned seriously sucks.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
There are 73 total messages for this topic
Reply to Thread
You need to register/login to use the forum.
Click here to Signup or Login !
[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]
Back to Forum
