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Forums - Music techology
Subject: something to think about
Original Message 1/29 12-Feb-04 @ 11:11 AM - something to think about
Alright, you know how kids are always going "How do I make my mixes sound better?" and what not. The answer is so simple really. Just love what you do, study and practice. Think about it all day, every day for years and keep learning, keep trying new ideas all the time. First off you have to be creative enough to come up with a good idea and some people just don't have that. If you do have the ideas then you need to have the patience, knowledge (technical) and confidence to bring it all together into something that you know is good. There aren't any formulas for that. It takes time and effort, more of both than most people have or want to give. People are so quick to ask for eq frequencies and compression settings and what software to use and what synth is good for this and that. There are more than enough books and web resources that will give you general guidelines. Man... this is art and people want recipes. I understand that there is nothing wrong with asking questions, I do it more than most. But when you ask for a decade's worth of knowledge and experience in one broad question it's obvious that you need to be more self sufficient and dig for what you want. Does anyone want the journey from here to there... or is it all about achieving everything right now? I don't know why people think that electronic music is any different from drawing, writing, sculpting, etc... You don't see people on forums asking "How do I paint like Michelangelo?" but somehow... because you can click a few notes into a drum grid on a shareware program and say "Whoa I made a beat!" the idea that a finished product is right around the corner presents itself. Then people start doing stuff and in a month's time don't understand why their mixes aren't on wax yet. You can load a drum kit consisting of clean hits that are already processed to work together into a softsampler, spend a while learning to write basic patterns, then throw a sampled bassline or melody over it... and on pc speakers hear a real track. This is akin to doing a decent job on a paint by numbers project and then expecting to paint for a living. It's normal to be ambitious at first and you should be, but you have to keep things in perspective.
There is something that a lot of people forget... In dance music half of the art is in the mixing and engineering. It's not a science, it's taking theory and technique and learning it so well that it becomes transparent... and you start using that knowledge in a thoughtless, fluid way. It's the fact that you know the rules and know them well enough to break them in your own fashion. The guy that engineered the latest pop tune on the radio would probably do a rotten job at making an underground dance tune tear it up because that is not his passion. If you don't really want something it's just not gonna happen. If you do and have the knack for it, it will. It's just a natural progression. That has been the way forward since the beginning.
Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification. There was a time when you had to commit yourself to this because you had no choice but to spend a lot of cash just to get started. Then you had to rely on your own ambition and creativity for new techniques. It seems like the attitudes have gone wrong in dance music. People used to take it as a joke because they thought it was easy to do... just computer generated, robotic beats. Now people are taking it seriously, trying to be producers and want it to be just that easy. I don't get it. Comments?
There is something that a lot of people forget... In dance music half of the art is in the mixing and engineering. It's not a science, it's taking theory and technique and learning it so well that it becomes transparent... and you start using that knowledge in a thoughtless, fluid way. It's the fact that you know the rules and know them well enough to break them in your own fashion. The guy that engineered the latest pop tune on the radio would probably do a rotten job at making an underground dance tune tear it up because that is not his passion. If you don't really want something it's just not gonna happen. If you do and have the knack for it, it will. It's just a natural progression. That has been the way forward since the beginning.
Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification. There was a time when you had to commit yourself to this because you had no choice but to spend a lot of cash just to get started. Then you had to rely on your own ambition and creativity for new techniques. It seems like the attitudes have gone wrong in dance music. People used to take it as a joke because they thought it was easy to do... just computer generated, robotic beats. Now people are taking it seriously, trying to be producers and want it to be just that easy. I don't get it. Comments?
Message 2/29 12-Feb-04 @ 11:54 AM - RE: something to think about
no comments it all seems covered but i may well cross post (on another forum) this if ok as there are some peeps who would benefit from such grounded ideas....
greg
greg
Message 3/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:00 PM - RE: something to think about
Yeah, take it anywhere you want if you think it would be a positive thing, thanks.
Message 4/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:21 PM - RE: something to think about
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
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"I don't know why people think that electronic music is any different from drawing, writing, sculpting, etc... You don't see people on forums asking "How do I paint like Michelangelo?" but somehow... because you can click a few notes into a drum grid on a shareware program and say "Whoa I made a beat!" the idea that a finished product is right around the corner presents itself. Then people start doing stuff and in a month's time don't understand why their mixes aren't on wax yet. "
You know, I have never looked at it that way. Very well put. Nice one SJ!
Steve.
You know, I have never looked at it that way. Very well put. Nice one SJ!
Steve.
Message 5/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:48 PM - RE: something to think about
I still know people who are into rock or classical or other kinds of music that say "I don't get it. Isn't electronic music just something where you press a button and there you go?" That is so lame and tells me they are not even really artists. You know, putting the element of personal taste aside, I think most artists who have walked the walk can seperate art from bullshit in other genres or artforms even when they they have no experience in a particular artform. There is something in art that shouts out depth, knowledge and experience, or doesn't. Sometimes you get fooled but for the most part I think the mind and heart recognizes it.
Message 6/29 12-Feb-04 @ 01:27 PM - RE: something to think about
That's exactly the problem. Writing the tune is the easy bit. It’s the production that takes ages to learn. Making something that is going to sound good in a club is well hard. It took me 3 years of bashing the studio every night after work and every weekend to get to the stage now where I'm finally releasing stuff and giving CDR's to DJ mates to play in clubs and my tracks stand up (in production) terms to most of the stuff in the market place. I had to make huge sacrafices, like dump my girlfriend and only seeing my mates maybe twice a month. I went through emotional turnmoil for 2 1/2 years of thinking, "I'm shit, this is too hard, I'm rubbish, why am I doing this, it takes up too much time", etc. It was only by sheer will power that I've finally reached the end of the tunnel. Sure you never stop learning and as soon as you get to level 3, you wanna be at level 4 and it’s a constant battle but those 2 1/2 years of blood, sweat and tears were worth it. I know that sounds a bit cheesey but its my experience of studio/club life.
Message 7/29 12-Feb-04 @ 01:51 PM - RE: something to think about
me three....i feel im slowly getting to where i wanna be and im in no rush...
ive had far too many debates with 'real' (read guitarists) musicians who ask why i dont play the guitar in a band anymore....and it always comes down to 'oh its all computers'- i don't need one, 'oh its just beat matching'- for some yes but someone has to write the beats in the first place, 'oh its all samples'- well yes it can be but tell me where i can record a drummer who has a kick drum suitable for house and ill go get my mic out, ill still be sampling....
ok i guess my point is that they slag something they dont actually understand, dismiss something as easy, unsoulful....wheras in fact for me its easy to write a guitar tune and record with a band then write a really good electronic tune....i can hold my own in arguments about all kind of music genres non e-musos (ok the majority of them) often cant get involved in debates aboyt emusic cos they are too ignorant about the styles, the scenes, the history and how its made.....
think ive told this before but when i was in the studio audience for put it to the test with carol voderman (stoppid uni thing don't ask) they had a fetaure about a 40yrold mum making a dance tune, they took her into a studio, the producer helped her put some ready made loops togther and then they palyed the result to her kids (numpty's the both of them) who could not work out that she 'wrote' it (like she did)- that too me has been the best/worst example of the disinformation about electronic music....
phew!
greg
ive had far too many debates with 'real' (read guitarists) musicians who ask why i dont play the guitar in a band anymore....and it always comes down to 'oh its all computers'- i don't need one, 'oh its just beat matching'- for some yes but someone has to write the beats in the first place, 'oh its all samples'- well yes it can be but tell me where i can record a drummer who has a kick drum suitable for house and ill go get my mic out, ill still be sampling....
ok i guess my point is that they slag something they dont actually understand, dismiss something as easy, unsoulful....wheras in fact for me its easy to write a guitar tune and record with a band then write a really good electronic tune....i can hold my own in arguments about all kind of music genres non e-musos (ok the majority of them) often cant get involved in debates aboyt emusic cos they are too ignorant about the styles, the scenes, the history and how its made.....
think ive told this before but when i was in the studio audience for put it to the test with carol voderman (stoppid uni thing don't ask) they had a fetaure about a 40yrold mum making a dance tune, they took her into a studio, the producer helped her put some ready made loops togther and then they palyed the result to her kids (numpty's the both of them) who could not work out that she 'wrote' it (like she did)- that too me has been the best/worst example of the disinformation about electronic music....
phew!
greg
Message 8/29 12-Feb-04 @ 03:58 PM - RE: something to think about
Damn this thread was moved. Next I won't see it here and I'll find it in the soundcard section.
Seriously, good move.
Seriously, good move.
Message 9/29 12-Feb-04 @ 04:01 PM Edit: 12-Feb-04 | 04:01 PM - RE: something to think about
Eventually the message will get through that electronic based music making equipment, be it a PC/MAC DAW, a collection of vintage analogue synths or the latest Roland/Korg/Yamaha (delete as appropriate) groove box, are just tools for musical creativity like every other musical instrument.
And whilst its true that these (newer) tools do facilitate the creation of a type of music in some form or another, it still ultimately comes down to the expression presented by the musician/producer etc. No expression? No individuality? Then you sound just like everything else.. easy(ish) to pick up... difficult to master.. isn't that the way of the world?
And whilst its true that these (newer) tools do facilitate the creation of a type of music in some form or another, it still ultimately comes down to the expression presented by the musician/producer etc. No expression? No individuality? Then you sound just like everything else.. easy(ish) to pick up... difficult to master.. isn't that the way of the world?
Message 10/29 12-Feb-04 @ 04:07 PM - RE: something to think about
that's one of the nicest posts i've read here in a long time sj....necessary and well-said. thanks.
i'd also like to say welcome to tom jenkins who apparently wants to share his underground-house expertise with us and not just slag dt'ers for "not getting it".
i, for one...am eager to start my next track at 128bpm.... of course the mix will be shite but the tempo will be proper for some minutes.
and of course after that ....the tempo will be 99 or 109.
i think the amount of raw technical knowledge skills and expertise required to make a song SOUND good...whether the tune is crap or not......is a painfully elusive goal for me. having come from an art background where expression and spontaneity are tantamount to god...and technique is secondary.....it's easy to let the actual mechanics take the short-end priority-wise. this can take it's toll as those expressions require some sonic foundation by which they can make themselves heard by others.
conversely, there's those that couldn't pen a tune if they had to and yet via loop software...and a universe of libraries...you got kids making tunes which sound like veteran producers sweated over them.
i am always interested in lessons regarding eQing and compression for instance.
even easy tricks and tips if they help make the music along and don't take away from it's originality.
anyway...it's good to hear some fresh voices and it'd be even greater to hear some
fresh tracks representing these perspectives.
i know how often i've been completely moved by some young house dj spinning some deep crazy rhythm with some spastic horn bit flying all about and this bass just pumping and wobbling all about and thinking...how the hell does he do that?
and all i could was dance.
i'd also like to say welcome to tom jenkins who apparently wants to share his underground-house expertise with us and not just slag dt'ers for "not getting it".
i, for one...am eager to start my next track at 128bpm.... of course the mix will be shite but the tempo will be proper for some minutes.
and of course after that ....the tempo will be 99 or 109.
i think the amount of raw technical knowledge skills and expertise required to make a song SOUND good...whether the tune is crap or not......is a painfully elusive goal for me. having come from an art background where expression and spontaneity are tantamount to god...and technique is secondary.....it's easy to let the actual mechanics take the short-end priority-wise. this can take it's toll as those expressions require some sonic foundation by which they can make themselves heard by others.
conversely, there's those that couldn't pen a tune if they had to and yet via loop software...and a universe of libraries...you got kids making tunes which sound like veteran producers sweated over them.
i am always interested in lessons regarding eQing and compression for instance.
even easy tricks and tips if they help make the music along and don't take away from it's originality.
anyway...it's good to hear some fresh voices and it'd be even greater to hear some
fresh tracks representing these perspectives.
i know how often i've been completely moved by some young house dj spinning some deep crazy rhythm with some spastic horn bit flying all about and this bass just pumping and wobbling all about and thinking...how the hell does he do that?
and all i could was dance.
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