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Forums - Music techology
Subject: UC16 controller problem?
Viewing all 13 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2
Original Message 1/13 23-Dec-03 @ 03:05 AM - UC16 controller problem?
Trying it out, or attempting to, and no love. Anyone using it for VSTi control in SX?
Message 2/13 23-Dec-03 @ 08:02 PM Edit: 23-Dec-03 | 08:10 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
Old drivers. Sorted, except....
stepping, stepping, stepping.
Maybe.
Its not necessarily the UC-16's fault because this is something I'm only now discovering about several of my soft synths. Until now I used the synth EGs to modify CU & Res because I wasn't using a keyboard, I was entering in note data manually. For example, using the Pro-53's EGs creates nice smooth transitions. The problem seems to be that Pro-53's on-screen knobs don't resolve beyond 128 steps so when using the mouse or a controller there will be stepping. This can only mean that creating complex envelopes manually using the synths UI is right out. Drawing the envelopes into a controller lane in Cubase doesn't fix this either.
Since this seems to be a problem with ALL the soft synths I've tried so far I've no way to know if the UC-16 is also resolving at 128 steps. Evolution's hype states, "high resolution encoders", so I wonder if there is a soft synth out there I can try it with to make this determination. I hear great things about people using controllers for their soft synths, including some of the ones that I have, so I've begun to wonder if stepping isn't a side effect that has become acceptable. An acceptable trade off for the convenience of plugins. I can't imagine that being the case.
I'm not bashing the UC-16 out of hand because of my soft synths' inability to operate smoothly from within their UI so aside from my current inability to actually control my soft synths properly the UC-16 appears to be brilliant.
The UC-16 sports 16 knobs, a keypad for storing snapshots and for entering in CC numbers when programming, four buttons to instantly recall the four most oft used presets - of which there are 24 total, overwritable, possibilities and four more buttons to handle control selection, preset recall, channel and control assignments. The buttons are my favorite: soft rubber enclosed ones, not hard plastic or surface mount membranes. A large LED displays numerical data including the current knob's controller assignment when selected. The whole vibe is minimalistic and utilitarian which I like. All this comes at a current price of $70.00US which means that outfitting one's kit with encoders for live performance can be done pretty cheap. Each synth can have sixteen additional controllers and it won't break the bank! I'll get to that in a minute.
The unit is powered by the USB port so it doesn't add any unnecessary cabling to the party, however, the lappy's time in use will be limited due to extra drain on the lappy's battery when not plugged in. What else is new? This isn't a problem for me, however, because I always look for an Edison plug wherever I may find myself and am often pleasantly surprised - who knew there would be a plug at the base of that tree in the park. Gotta keep those pretty tree lights on somehow. If you insist on writting music in the wilderness I would suggest an extra lappy battery.
Minute's up. If you want to use the unit sans computer as a standalone encoder for a hardware synth you'll use the one MIDI out port and will need a to find an appropriate walwart since Evolution doesn't supply one. You can't use both the USB and MIDI ports simultaneously and I have the impression doing so will blow something up. I see this as problem if one wants to use the unit live with hardware synths hooked up to a sequencer since there would be no easy way to get the sequencer data and encoder data into any given synth. I don't want to do this now but if a wild hair finds its way it would be nice to have this option without much ado. A MIDI merge box would probably work but that almost doubles the current low cost which is a major selling point. The cheapest merge box I could find is only ten dollars less than the UC-16 itself. Building one is, as I understand it, a pain because unlike a thru box a merge box uses software to keep things from going South. Funny thing is, the UC-16 sports a breakout in the back of the case for another MIDI port.
I really like the UC-16's form factor, it's small enough to fit in my backpack with my lappy and isn't obtrusive when in use. The UC-33, the UC-16's bigger sister, is almost as big as my lappy, Oxygen and it's ilk are even bigger so they're all right out. The UC-16 is really about the perfect size although I think even more space could have been saved because the area that has their logo screen printed on it is quite large. The same box is used for their DJ version and that space is taken up by a slider so I guess this dual purpose does keep costs down. Without having seen the DJ unit I also suspect this may explain the breakout for the other MIDI port.
Its case is hard plastic so, as all other things plastic, it will break if subjected to enough stress. Additionally, all such plastic devices sporting screen printing will probably see the day when that printing begins to fade and eventually dissappear, especially if you use it as a mobile, backpackable, accessory. However, since this is a generic unit it won't matter much. By the time this happens you should know the few proprietary buttons well enough to not care. The knobs are small and seem a bit sketchy when one is considering "tossing" it into a backpack so carefully packing it into said backpack would be prudent. Since your lappy is in the same backpack you'll be transporting it with care so I think the UC-16 solid enough.
Herein lies my biggest problem with the UC-16: all these positive attributes (even the single MIDI port can be overcome for live use) only add up to frustration for me, especially since I don't know whether the unit is actually sporting those "high resolution" encoders as Evolution claims. If I can find an equally high resolution soft synth then I can come to some conclusion as to it's usability. I have 29 days to do so. Any suggestions?
stepping, stepping, stepping.
Maybe.
Its not necessarily the UC-16's fault because this is something I'm only now discovering about several of my soft synths. Until now I used the synth EGs to modify CU & Res because I wasn't using a keyboard, I was entering in note data manually. For example, using the Pro-53's EGs creates nice smooth transitions. The problem seems to be that Pro-53's on-screen knobs don't resolve beyond 128 steps so when using the mouse or a controller there will be stepping. This can only mean that creating complex envelopes manually using the synths UI is right out. Drawing the envelopes into a controller lane in Cubase doesn't fix this either.
Since this seems to be a problem with ALL the soft synths I've tried so far I've no way to know if the UC-16 is also resolving at 128 steps. Evolution's hype states, "high resolution encoders", so I wonder if there is a soft synth out there I can try it with to make this determination. I hear great things about people using controllers for their soft synths, including some of the ones that I have, so I've begun to wonder if stepping isn't a side effect that has become acceptable. An acceptable trade off for the convenience of plugins. I can't imagine that being the case.
I'm not bashing the UC-16 out of hand because of my soft synths' inability to operate smoothly from within their UI so aside from my current inability to actually control my soft synths properly the UC-16 appears to be brilliant.
The UC-16 sports 16 knobs, a keypad for storing snapshots and for entering in CC numbers when programming, four buttons to instantly recall the four most oft used presets - of which there are 24 total, overwritable, possibilities and four more buttons to handle control selection, preset recall, channel and control assignments. The buttons are my favorite: soft rubber enclosed ones, not hard plastic or surface mount membranes. A large LED displays numerical data including the current knob's controller assignment when selected. The whole vibe is minimalistic and utilitarian which I like. All this comes at a current price of $70.00US which means that outfitting one's kit with encoders for live performance can be done pretty cheap. Each synth can have sixteen additional controllers and it won't break the bank! I'll get to that in a minute.The unit is powered by the USB port so it doesn't add any unnecessary cabling to the party, however, the lappy's time in use will be limited due to extra drain on the lappy's battery when not plugged in. What else is new? This isn't a problem for me, however, because I always look for an Edison plug wherever I may find myself and am often pleasantly surprised - who knew there would be a plug at the base of that tree in the park. Gotta keep those pretty tree lights on somehow. If you insist on writting music in the wilderness I would suggest an extra lappy battery.
Minute's up. If you want to use the unit sans computer as a standalone encoder for a hardware synth you'll use the one MIDI out port and will need a to find an appropriate walwart since Evolution doesn't supply one. You can't use both the USB and MIDI ports simultaneously and I have the impression doing so will blow something up. I see this as problem if one wants to use the unit live with hardware synths hooked up to a sequencer since there would be no easy way to get the sequencer data and encoder data into any given synth. I don't want to do this now but if a wild hair finds its way it would be nice to have this option without much ado. A MIDI merge box would probably work but that almost doubles the current low cost which is a major selling point. The cheapest merge box I could find is only ten dollars less than the UC-16 itself. Building one is, as I understand it, a pain because unlike a thru box a merge box uses software to keep things from going South. Funny thing is, the UC-16 sports a breakout in the back of the case for another MIDI port.
I really like the UC-16's form factor, it's small enough to fit in my backpack with my lappy and isn't obtrusive when in use. The UC-33, the UC-16's bigger sister, is almost as big as my lappy, Oxygen and it's ilk are even bigger so they're all right out. The UC-16 is really about the perfect size although I think even more space could have been saved because the area that has their logo screen printed on it is quite large. The same box is used for their DJ version and that space is taken up by a slider so I guess this dual purpose does keep costs down. Without having seen the DJ unit I also suspect this may explain the breakout for the other MIDI port.
Its case is hard plastic so, as all other things plastic, it will break if subjected to enough stress. Additionally, all such plastic devices sporting screen printing will probably see the day when that printing begins to fade and eventually dissappear, especially if you use it as a mobile, backpackable, accessory. However, since this is a generic unit it won't matter much. By the time this happens you should know the few proprietary buttons well enough to not care. The knobs are small and seem a bit sketchy when one is considering "tossing" it into a backpack so carefully packing it into said backpack would be prudent. Since your lappy is in the same backpack you'll be transporting it with care so I think the UC-16 solid enough.
Herein lies my biggest problem with the UC-16: all these positive attributes (even the single MIDI port can be overcome for live use) only add up to frustration for me, especially since I don't know whether the unit is actually sporting those "high resolution" encoders as Evolution claims. If I can find an equally high resolution soft synth then I can come to some conclusion as to it's usability. I have 29 days to do so. Any suggestions?
Message 3/13 23-Dec-03 @ 10:17 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
Linplug Albino if my memory serves me right (I remember cutoff dials showing some 4 digit numbers).
http://www.linplug.com/Products/Albino/albino.htm
Also, ohmforce plugins (frohmage, ohmboyz) have some really fine on-screen knobs, don't know if you can controll them via MIDI with the same resolution...
(NRPN?)
http://www.linplug.com/Products/Albino/albino.htm
Also, ohmforce plugins (frohmage, ohmboyz) have some really fine on-screen knobs, don't know if you can controll them via MIDI with the same resolution...
(NRPN?)
Message 4/13 23-Dec-03 @ 11:42 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
rhyze... i've recently purchased a UC-33... and since i use Logic *cough* i can actually see every bit of midi data which enters the sequencer. when i twidle the knobs on the UC-33 slowly enough they do transmit every value from 0-127 rather regularly, so i'd guess your UC-16 should do the same.
why dont you try recording the output from the unit, while very slowly turning the knobs? that way you'll see if it is transmiting all the numbers or not?
dunno why Rags suggested Albino, but lemme second that notion!
(tho i still have to make a controller map for it!)
why dont you try recording the output from the unit, while very slowly turning the knobs? that way you'll see if it is transmiting all the numbers or not?
dunno why Rags suggested Albino, but lemme second that notion!
(tho i still have to make a controller map for it!
)
Message 5/13 24-Dec-03 @ 01:53 AM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
I guess my question is whether or not the UC-16 is interpolating between steps in order to smooth them out and prevent zippering or stepping. I think I may have answered my question, however, with Oddity. I alternated between using the on screen sliders and the UC-16 knobs and noticed a distinct difference. Oddity, while still stepping ever so slightly - maybe even no more than harmonically, was much smoother. Using the UC-16 there were very clear steps as I rode the slider.
I am very disappointed to say the least. I imagine a lot of people will not notice the difference but what I want to begin working on would rely upon the ability to make very slight adjustments to various parameters in real time, the kind of adjustments that would otherwise requires multistage envelopes beyond what is currently available to my knowledge. Perhaps its time to seriously consider Reaktor and build my own 10, 12 or 24 stage envelopes.
I may yet have a use for the UC-16 as an addition to my mouse. I'll see how it goes and make a determination before the return date passes. Still, I refuse to believe there isn't a controller out there that will communicate with various sequencers' plugins and interpolate between MIDI's 128 steps. Am I asking that much? Perhaps I'll hold on to my hardware gear for awhile longer. By the way, creating one's own presets or tailoring the one's provided on the UC-16 is about as easy as it gets - only adding to my frustration. WHAAAAAAA! How could it be so hard to fine tune a soft synth's or controller's resolution? Would it be possible to write a program that acts as an intermediary between controllers and plugins or sequencers and plugins that interpolates? Kind of similar in execution as the idea behind Hubi's Loopback Device.
I am very disappointed to say the least. I imagine a lot of people will not notice the difference but what I want to begin working on would rely upon the ability to make very slight adjustments to various parameters in real time, the kind of adjustments that would otherwise requires multistage envelopes beyond what is currently available to my knowledge. Perhaps its time to seriously consider Reaktor and build my own 10, 12 or 24 stage envelopes.
I may yet have a use for the UC-16 as an addition to my mouse. I'll see how it goes and make a determination before the return date passes. Still, I refuse to believe there isn't a controller out there that will communicate with various sequencers' plugins and interpolate between MIDI's 128 steps. Am I asking that much? Perhaps I'll hold on to my hardware gear for awhile longer. By the way, creating one's own presets or tailoring the one's provided on the UC-16 is about as easy as it gets - only adding to my frustration. WHAAAAAAA! How could it be so hard to fine tune a soft synth's or controller's resolution? Would it be possible to write a program that acts as an intermediary between controllers and plugins or sequencers and plugins that interpolates? Kind of similar in execution as the idea behind Hubi's Loopback Device.
Message 6/13 24-Dec-03 @ 02:07 AM Edit: 24-Dec-03 | 02:13 AM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
I feel yer pain man but... 24-stage envelopes? If you need that kind of control, why not just draw your mods in your sequencer? Or maybe "arm all parameters and go nuts with on-screen knobs" stylee.... do em in layers... then edit the rubber bands when yer done to harmonize your cutoff/resonance/width/whatever balance? Always worked for me.
Message 7/13 24-Dec-03 @ 02:10 AM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
i would also recommend hooking up the UC16 directly to your K2000 and use the midi monitor in there to check for stepping. That would give a second, independent perspective to eliminate the possibility of problems with your MIDI interface.
Message 9/13 24-Dec-03 @ 10:07 AM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
Interpolating between steps?
Well, I assume the UC-16 communicates with the host via MIDI. So it could either send CC data (7 bits, 0..127), or NRPN data (which is actually two CC fields "linked" together logically, 14bits, 0..16383 ). It's up to the plugin's MIDI implementation which kind of input is it looking for, for a given parameter. As far as I can see from the UC-16s MIDI chart, it doesn't support NRPN, and no matter what it might interpolate inside the box, it still has to communicate on that 7 bit channel.
There are some plugs, which however does some interpolation on the receiving side (I believe NI Kontakt is one) which might improve things considerably. I'd check your plugins MIDI implementation chart to see if they can handle NRPN, and if they do, then you might want to go for a controller which supports NRPN messages (Doepfer pocket control?)
Well, I assume the UC-16 communicates with the host via MIDI. So it could either send CC data (7 bits, 0..127), or NRPN data (which is actually two CC fields "linked" together logically, 14bits, 0..16383 ). It's up to the plugin's MIDI implementation which kind of input is it looking for, for a given parameter. As far as I can see from the UC-16s MIDI chart, it doesn't support NRPN, and no matter what it might interpolate inside the box, it still has to communicate on that 7 bit channel.
There are some plugs, which however does some interpolation on the receiving side (I believe NI Kontakt is one) which might improve things considerably. I'd check your plugins MIDI implementation chart to see if they can handle NRPN, and if they do, then you might want to go for a controller which supports NRPN messages (Doepfer pocket control?)
Message 10/13 24-Dec-03 @ 04:51 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
or just make some music professor.
Message 11/13 24-Dec-03 @ 09:58 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
Naah. Details are important innit?
:o)
:o)
Message 12/13 24-Dec-03 @ 10:03 PM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
......but so is not losing sight of the forest.
Message 13/13 25-Dec-03 @ 11:58 AM - RE: UC16 controller problem?
what Rags said... you aint getting res higher than 128 steps except via NRPN's, which is again dependent on both the s/w and h/w implementation.
but like mcc said... why sweat it so much?
but like mcc said... why sweat it so much?
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