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Subject: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

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Original Message 1/16 05-Dec-03 @ 10:01 PM - Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

0/d

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Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows what the exact tempo a song should be so that I could do a seemless, exactly on the bar edit in an AvidDV editing system? What would 24FPS or 25FPS match up to tempo-wise on a sequencer? With say 1 or 2 seconds being a bar? I know it would be a hell of a lot easier to cut a track down in sound forge or something like that but... it would be something interesting to know. (and I can't find a calculator!!)

Cheers,
s

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Message 2/16 05-Dec-03 @ 11:36 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

milan

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huh what? do refrase... whats frames got to do with it? 24 or 25 frames is one second... 120bpm has 2 beats in one second, 180 has tree etc etc... what are you asking?

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Message 3/16 06-Dec-03 @ 05:34 AM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

queasy00

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if you want 1 second per bar and assuming 4 beats to a bar and 24 fps then that means:

1 second = 1 bar = 24 frames
4 beats/bar ==> 4 beats/second

24 frames/second ==> 24/(4 beats)=6 frames/beat.

so 120bpm ==> 120*6 frames/minute

if you want to use other bpm follow the formula:

BPM*6 = number of frames per minute assuming 24/fps.

I just came up with this now so hope it's right. Is this what you want?

-j

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Message 4/16 06-Dec-03 @ 05:36 AM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

queasy00

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oh and assuming 4/4 (4 beats to a bar).

-j

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Message 5/16 06-Dec-03 @ 02:02 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

0/d

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Yep, I think that answered it.

6 frames a beat at 4/4 at 240bpm or
12 frames a beat at 4/4 at 120bpm?

Is that right?

The reason I'm asking is cause in AvidDVXp I can only edit in frames, no smaller, and for the sake of creating audio tracks and sfx outside of Avid to bring into Avid I might as well do it at 'editable' tempo (if its at all practical).

Theres gotta be an easier way to put this question...

s

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Message 6/16 06-Dec-03 @ 04:37 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

queasy00

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yea i think it sounds right. i suspect however, that you may still get some timing issues just like how you can't really synch two sequencers together by simply setting the same bpm and hitting play at the same time (it goes out of synch after awhile).

then again i don't know how video editing works our how software works so maybe there's some bpm->frame synch mechanism that it employs.

-j

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Message 7/16 07-Dec-03 @ 12:36 AM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

beds

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write to picture if you ever can. i think it's shocking avid can only edit audio to frames, piece of shit. i was talking about this the other day with a (musician) avid editor, he was like, nah you can do it ok. i'm gonna press him on it monday. ing digidesign

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Message 8/16 07-Dec-03 @ 06:24 AM Edit: 07-Dec-03 | 07:23 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

Optofonik - AKA, mick, rhyze, etc.

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At 60 bpm (MM=60) a quarter note equals one second at 24 0/8 fps.

I'd like to suggest the book "On The Track" which includes a complete click book as an addendum.

http://www.gr8music.com/Karlin,_Fred/ontrack.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415941350/qid=1070778186/sr=12-1/102-4553782-4319334?v=glance&s=books

The paperback is half the price but I think its one of the few books you'll want to own in hardcover if you plan on pursuing a film score. I can't remember how many time I referred to my copy during my first experience as a music supervisor. A paperback would have fallen apart and ignorance would have been way more expensive.

Hope this helps

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Message 9/16 07-Dec-03 @ 12:44 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

digital rust

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this seams rather ridiculous because no composer ever writes their bpm
according to the frame rate. they write to picture and edit accordingly.

usually the music either fades, hits a note that holds for about the last bar and
then fades, or changes the tempo slightly to accommodate the important
hitpoints and/or end of the segment.

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Message 10/16 07-Dec-03 @ 07:19 PM Edit: 07-Dec-03 | 07:22 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

Optofonik - AKA, mick, rhyze, etc.

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Click books seem to have been around a long time though so there must be something to the idea. Sequencers and their ability to map tempo or "edit accordingly" have, as I understand it, pretty much replaced the need for click books on the scoring stage. I really think that anyone interested in the subject should read the book I referenced above. I know it cleared up a good many of my own misconceptions at one time or another.

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Message 11/16 07-Dec-03 @ 07:31 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

malk

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its a weird question iam doing a course which teaches you to right music to film or video running at 24/25 fps and what you sync to are the edits which are in smpte time and not all edits will fall on perfect beats or bars, this is the skill of scoring to picture doing musical acrobatics to hit your hit points on time within 2 frames.any film or video that has edits or cuts that are a perfect "tempo" will just look plain horrible and is rarely done.

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Message 12/16 08-Dec-03 @ 12:49 AM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

Optofonik - AKA, mick, rhyze, etc.

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Malk, if you are scoring with pencil and paper then a click book and the picture editor's logs seem essential. Would you agree?

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Message 13/16 08-Dec-03 @ 10:04 AM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

beds

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where writing to frame rate friendly bpm might be usefull is when you're writing beds and stings for tv background music, video editors will frequently edit the audio in avid to make up a backing track the length they require. because avid only edits audio to frames it might not be accurate enough to get a nice audio edit. i'll pester me video editing mate tonight about it.

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Message 14/16 09-Dec-03 @ 01:59 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

craig

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I would get it close and then timestretch the appropriate pieces to make it perfect.

-Craig

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Message 15/16 09-Dec-03 @ 10:36 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

Malk

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In reply to Optophonik, the peices i have put music to so far have been in digitised quicktime format, picture locked with smpte time code, and hit points that need to be made are indicated in bold smpte time, in real life you can work them out yourself, as the quicktime or avid if you use a pc appears inside logic audio it perfectley syncs to your sequencer, so if you take your hit points or editors notes on frames that edits occur you can put them into your seqencer as markers which appear on your time line or above the main arrange window as marks along your bars and beats line. This way your can juggle tempo to see if one fits a couple of your main hit points and do music contortions to hit the others, or tempo changes or insert different timings ie one bar of 3/4 or what ever works,its confusing but you begin to get a feel for things, so when you watch films where major composers have done whole scores you soon learn this a very complex thing, but as we all know the rewards of acheivment are well deserved.

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Message 16/16 10-Dec-03 @ 09:45 PM - RE: Tempo to match 24/25 FPS

0/d

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Cheers Rhyze i'll have to check it out. Do you think it would be something i could find in a library? Very few euros at the mo, being this time of the year and all that.

What I was doing when I asked was that I had a ticking clock (a timebomb sort of thing, offscreen) and I made a tick tock thing with my sampler and Rm1x at a tempo of 110bpm. The problem was when I wanted to loop the 30 second sample in Avid, so that the edit would be seemless, it wouldn't work. So 120 bpm would of been perfect. I guess being able to cut something at 120bpm would have enormous practical benefits in AVID. Espeacially FX and such. The music thing I agree, nothing like music should ever be so exact or rigid.

(and yes I know that a clock only ticks every second and tocks every other second, but who cares when it can't be seen

)

Thanks for the suggestions/answers/ reply's. Much appreciated.

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