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Forums - Music techology
Subject: Types of useful bass synthesis
Viewing all 21 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3
Original Message 1/21 28-Jul-98 @ 09:25 AM - Types of useful bass synthesis
Well, I finally got my head round Pinnacle sampler linked up to CW and spent all last night having one huge orgasm as it became apparent that yes, it was sooo much easier to program drum tracks from CW than using imported loops or one-shot wavs or acid or any other way of programming even a vaguely complex rhythm track (love those controller-window-things, even just sweeping the pitchwheel randomly on breaks or fading the delay return up and down sounds great). So the point is, the drums are sorted, and i sampled some rhodes piano, and got some strings modulating about a bit and therefore I now am well on the way to getting the sound that i want (drum'n'bass-ish) BUT then i got stuck on the bass...
So, for bass, I have the following options: use the an1x, use my wavestation, use something like rebirth or vaz (no, don't laugh, rebirth can make a well-repspectable bass), sample a sine/pulse wave and mess with it (bearing in mind that the pinnacle is far from a fully-functional sampler so that that's not really an option until i get my a3000) or (hurrah) use general midi.
So my question is, for that deep jungle or ringing garage bass, can i get away with what I have. The AN1x does do some nice bassy sounds but they all sound a bit weak somehow - could it possibly be because the bass sound I'm looking for is FM-style??? (the an1x had only two fm operators). Would i benefit from buying a dx-synth? Bearing in mind that i am only just starting to program the an1x and therefore could *well* be understating the power of it...
So any tips? general hints on getting good clear bass would be appreciated greatly, as would any suggestions of gear to look out for. thanks
will
So, for bass, I have the following options: use the an1x, use my wavestation, use something like rebirth or vaz (no, don't laugh, rebirth can make a well-repspectable bass), sample a sine/pulse wave and mess with it (bearing in mind that the pinnacle is far from a fully-functional sampler so that that's not really an option until i get my a3000) or (hurrah) use general midi.
So my question is, for that deep jungle or ringing garage bass, can i get away with what I have. The AN1x does do some nice bassy sounds but they all sound a bit weak somehow - could it possibly be because the bass sound I'm looking for is FM-style??? (the an1x had only two fm operators). Would i benefit from buying a dx-synth? Bearing in mind that i am only just starting to program the an1x and therefore could *well* be understating the power of it...
So any tips? general hints on getting good clear bass would be appreciated greatly, as would any suggestions of gear to look out for. thanks
will
Message 2/21 28-Jul-98 @ 10:01 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
If you want a deep jungle bass just use the sine/pulse wave and if it has them use the pinnacles filters. Set the resonance really high and the cutoff almost at zero. That should give you a good subbass to use. Either that or, I'm not sure how the AN1x works set up a sine wave in it and do what I said before and you should get a pretty good sub bass sound.
arsenaul@niagara.com
arsenaul@niagara.com
Message 3/21 28-Jul-98 @ 10:12 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
Cool. So you basically make the bass frequencies really resonant? should've thought of that myself really. anyway, i'll try that on the an1x - the pinnacle does my head in really. the other thing i was thinking was....you know you get some basses that kind of dive if they sustain? like a pitch bend but not really? is there any special way to create that (iie is it something along the line os a sync sweep?) or is it just pitchbend?
been listening to the dj rap album - some cool stuff on that apart from the singing which is dreadful. "beats like this" - very simple, very cool. so anyway, that's the jungle side explained. how about garage bass? kilo?
will....
been listening to the dj rap album - some cool stuff on that apart from the singing which is dreadful. "beats like this" - very simple, very cool. so anyway, that's the jungle side explained. how about garage bass? kilo?
will....
Message 4/21 28-Jul-98 @ 10:39 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
If you happen to have an analog kbd or have a friend w/one borrow it for about a day, get abunch of one note samples with and without FX lots of FX . When you got all of your samples get'em all nice and tidy and spread them out over an octave or so and set the filters slightly different for some and you know...expirement. As for the DX series they produce some amazing basses my favorite DX is the DX100 but dont forget the infamous TX81Z also known for a couple of good sounds for a couple hundred bucks or less. Or try hooking a line into your mixer turning it up pretty loud and touching it to your temple , and sample it with or without FX and edit out the first POP! and use the hum, try it youll be suprised.
cya dannyc
cya dannyc
Message 5/21 28-Jul-98 @ 10:45 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
One way to create the effect you are mentioning about diving whilst sutaining is to use portamento. Make sure the filters don't reset during the slide though or it won't be very smooth.
Message 6/21 28-Jul-98 @ 03:55 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
Y'all probably know this but if you do'nt:
Turn the resonance on your synth (an1x or whatever) up high, so high it starts to selfoscillate. Then take the cutoff envelope and make a short attack and a rather long sustain, and start messing around.
You should get a booming sub-bass. Or at least I do, on my novation basstation.
Turn the resonance on your synth (an1x or whatever) up high, so high it starts to selfoscillate. Then take the cutoff envelope and make a short attack and a rather long sustain, and start messing around.
You should get a booming sub-bass. Or at least I do, on my novation basstation.
Message 7/21 28-Jul-98 @ 06:24 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
yeah... i like fm bass alot...... and after all, adding one is so cheap..... for what you get......
the pitch dive could be done by setting the pitch to the envelope decay of course
the pitch dive could be done by setting the pitch to the envelope decay of course
Message 8/21 31-Jul-98 @ 04:01 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
if that an1x works like my ex5 you should be able to get a fucking low-ass bass. I popped a set of headphones the other night because i had a bass patch so low and freaking loud i couldn't hear it and kept turning it up -- untill i heard my phones crack. jeez.
Message 9/21 31-Jul-98 @ 08:14 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
buggo
Posts: 8
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you seem to have shitloads of equipment....you can't make a sub bass sound?
sorty that should have been in the slag place but whatever...interesting thing, that bit about the headphones, i did the same thing the other night with my juno; messing around with real low bass...don't think i fried 'em but they are way quiet now and the bass is GONE....
yeh, what they suggested about turning the resonance up and the cutoff down works great. sine waves are best suited to this purpose, but i got a great sub bass going using just the square sub-osc on my synth; lo cutoff, hi rezo..sometimes when i play a certain note with that patch, the frequency is just such that it buzzes like hell; don't know if this is universal or not, but all told, SUB BASS IS A VERY FINICKY THING. it's easy to get it so "sub" that it disappears, plus you've got to remember most people will be listening on speakers that can't pump out REAL low frequencies; anyway yeh i've never used the sampler unit you talk about but if it's got rezo filters try a sine wave.
sorty that should have been in the slag place but whatever...interesting thing, that bit about the headphones, i did the same thing the other night with my juno; messing around with real low bass...don't think i fried 'em but they are way quiet now and the bass is GONE....
yeh, what they suggested about turning the resonance up and the cutoff down works great. sine waves are best suited to this purpose, but i got a great sub bass going using just the square sub-osc on my synth; lo cutoff, hi rezo..sometimes when i play a certain note with that patch, the frequency is just such that it buzzes like hell; don't know if this is universal or not, but all told, SUB BASS IS A VERY FINICKY THING. it's easy to get it so "sub" that it disappears, plus you've got to remember most people will be listening on speakers that can't pump out REAL low frequencies; anyway yeh i've never used the sampler unit you talk about but if it's got rezo filters try a sine wave.
Message 10/21 31-Jul-98 @ 09:55 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
er.... ALWAYS be very carefiul with real analog synths and your speakers.... they dont like each other too much..... analog's fry speakers like no-body's business
Message 11/21 03-Aug-98 @ 09:13 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
"you seem to have shitloads of equipment....you can't make a sub bass sound? "
no, you're right, its pretty pathetic. but i found out one of the problems with what i was doing - the speakers that i was using before had really limited low end - i put some tracks that i'd done on them through several systems and there were some tracks that just had too much bass that i couldn't even hear on those speakers.
and the an1x can do the bass now that i've got the speakers that show me the low end. but i still might buy an fm synth anyway for the variation...
no, you're right, its pretty pathetic. but i found out one of the problems with what i was doing - the speakers that i was using before had really limited low end - i put some tracks that i'd done on them through several systems and there were some tracks that just had too much bass that i couldn't even hear on those speakers.
and the an1x can do the bass now that i've got the speakers that show me the low end. but i still might buy an fm synth anyway for the variation...
Message 12/21 03-Aug-98 @ 04:12 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
You gotta watch out for your ears when experimenting with low freq's. I've had some pretty nasty ringing sounds that have harassed for for several days when I've been playing'round and forgot to keep the volume low. It's like buggo says; some frequencies are so low you can't actually perceive them too well, but they party on in your ears so...
Message 13/21 03-Aug-98 @ 08:16 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
buggo
Posts: 8
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yeah, like i said sub basses are cool but you gotta be careful, both for the sake of yer equipment and your ears!!
glad you got some better speakers...good luck!
(now i've only got a way to replace my 30W hifi speakers...my dad has some NNIIICCEE 100W Electovoice jobs that totally fucking rock and he never uses them, but i can't even borrow 'em...FUCK. can i pull a Lyle menendez on that guy? he he...)
glad you got some better speakers...good luck!
(now i've only got a way to replace my 30W hifi speakers...my dad has some NNIIICCEE 100W Electovoice jobs that totally fucking rock and he never uses them, but i can't even borrow 'em...FUCK. can i pull a Lyle menendez on that guy? he he...)
Message 14/21 04-Aug-98 @ 09:20 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
oh my god....i've started two threads recently - this one and the compression one because i'd never seemed to be able to get a decent bass sound and didn't really understand what was the use of compression - anyway, last night i just plugged an old bass guitar into the mixer, recorded about 8 bars and then stuck it through a software plug-in compressor (think it was the waves c1 thingy) and it just sounded so fucking fat and punchy that i nearly fell out of my seat. i'd just sold my wavestation for what i bought it for as well, so i was pretty happy, and then i got my pinnacle sampler working with cakewalk, and then the first thing i touched on the synth sounded wicked and recorded like a dream and this is just heaven.
i'm praying that the setup stays the same - this is the major problem i've been having with finishing tracks is that everytime i went back to the studio i'd have to rearange the wiring and the mixer and stuff - or take the pc apart, or relocate the speakers. but now its all good.
i don't think i even need sub-bass anymore - bass guitar sounds wicked - i was doing this dirty scratchy dub bass line and stuck it under a 160-ish breakbeat and - my god - it just sounded so natural. why didn't someone tell me about real bass before???? (and buggo mate, i tried sticking it through a distortion pedal and it just bit through the air - i think i got a bit carried away though because i tried kilo's delay-trick with the decreasing delay times to get the feedback loop a-la-norman-cook-thread and it just kinda went boom an dthen crackled....)
i'm praying that the setup stays the same - this is the major problem i've been having with finishing tracks is that everytime i went back to the studio i'd have to rearange the wiring and the mixer and stuff - or take the pc apart, or relocate the speakers. but now its all good.
i don't think i even need sub-bass anymore - bass guitar sounds wicked - i was doing this dirty scratchy dub bass line and stuck it under a 160-ish breakbeat and - my god - it just sounded so natural. why didn't someone tell me about real bass before???? (and buggo mate, i tried sticking it through a distortion pedal and it just bit through the air - i think i got a bit carried away though because i tried kilo's delay-trick with the decreasing delay times to get the feedback loop a-la-norman-cook-thread and it just kinda went boom an dthen crackled....)
Message 15/21 04-Aug-98 @ 01:18 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
tu tut... you didnt read the Making Sounds section inside Synths section here...... real cheap bass is a great way to get basslines....!
sample synths are generally out for LO bass.... the samples crack up lower down... FM & analog are thr rulers... but sub-bass wont really show up on small home studio speakers.... IF you want to hear any sub-bass that may be present.... go and stand with your head in the corner of the room, where the two wall meet....and lean your head into the corner touching the walls..... that is where you will hear the lo end of what you are doing... but it may not be apparent in the center of the mix where you monitor when mixing/working... try it.....
thing is... mixers shelve off the bass control at about 80 hz.... so if you just add bass with the bass control, you will be boosting the lower and mid bass too and the result will be booming bass -end... nasty..... sub-bass is present most of the time, as the bass shelves off the bottom end.... it is simply that you cant hear it with normal speakers in the normal seating position for mixing...
sample synths are generally out for LO bass.... the samples crack up lower down... FM & analog are thr rulers... but sub-bass wont really show up on small home studio speakers.... IF you want to hear any sub-bass that may be present.... go and stand with your head in the corner of the room, where the two wall meet....and lean your head into the corner touching the walls..... that is where you will hear the lo end of what you are doing... but it may not be apparent in the center of the mix where you monitor when mixing/working... try it.....
thing is... mixers shelve off the bass control at about 80 hz.... so if you just add bass with the bass control, you will be boosting the lower and mid bass too and the result will be booming bass -end... nasty..... sub-bass is present most of the time, as the bass shelves off the bottom end.... it is simply that you cant hear it with normal speakers in the normal seating position for mixing...
Message 16/21 04-Aug-98 @ 01:33 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
yeah, i remember now that you said to use the old bass guitar, but thing is, before i used to record it on 4track - without compression - and it sounded pretty undefined. but now i'm pretty confident i can get that tight bass sound i've been looking for....
kilo, if i was to spend 300-500 pounds on a power amp and speakers for monitoring (as when i go back to manchester i won't have the use of my current speakers), what would you recommend? second hand? new? i've had a quick look through your monitor section in the site - i was just wondering if you have anything to add to that now? anyway, thanks for the tips...
kilo, if i was to spend 300-500 pounds on a power amp and speakers for monitoring (as when i go back to manchester i won't have the use of my current speakers), what would you recommend? second hand? new? i've had a quick look through your monitor section in the site - i was just wondering if you have anything to add to that now? anyway, thanks for the tips...
Message 17/21 04-Aug-98 @ 02:16 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
I'm also interested in those opinions, and there's a thread I started called 'Monitor/EQ Opinions wanted' which discusses that (if you haven't found it already)
-C
-C
Message 18/21 05-Aug-98 @ 03:14 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
well, I like to use an old Hi-Fi amp, cos it is so easy to run off cassettes etc.... or play a cassette into the amp... take the heapdphone socket out to a splitter and in to the mixer for sampling etc cassette material.... plus I can flip between cd's and Vinyl etc to do the same....
Ok... you can do all that with a aptchbay & a power amp but it is tedius,.....
So..... NAD amps... if you can get an old 3020 the straight first model 3020 with no other suffixes is the nutz..... when it came out it was rated by hi-fi mags as better than most amps up to 5 or 6 times the price !!!.... yamaha realistic sound amps are cool too...Technics SUV amps are pokey....Older Sansui amps are the nuts too...... if you want power amp, and old s/h Quad is good.... all of them have very low harmonic distortion figures..... just check they are ok, and the power supply doesnt hum like fuck, cos that is very irritating when alone and working and it is quiet....
speakers... shit...er...... NS10's are easy to come by, I personaly don't like 'em, but.. alot of A&R people use 'em...... check the new ranges from the Big music companies like Alesis , Soundcraft , Tannoy etc..... or find a pair of good british bookshelf units....old A&R A38's are WELL sought after.... or (drool) a pair of old Dual-Concentric Tannoys ...although they will be out of budget.....I hate JBL's, don't ask me why, although the bigger bookshelf size ones are ok.............. I dunno, there is SO much choice... in the end, you will still have to set them up right (the distance from the rear wall behind the speaker is important for it's bottom end response....), good thick cable (mains house cable is good it is cheap and all copper and thick....).. make sure they are in-phase.... and get used to the room.....
see... this is where all this shite speaker nmanufacturers talk is visible.... go to a speaker section in a synth/studio shop... with a set-up where they can switch between speakers.... notice anything???...... absolutely !!... every pair sounds totally different !!!... NOW.... they ALL claim to be accurate & with no colouration, studio quality etc blah blah etc...... HA!!... if that was the case, they would all sound the fucking same surely !?!!...... it's all a bunch of cobblers..... cos no two people have the same frequency response to their hearing anyway....
Ok... you can do all that with a aptchbay & a power amp but it is tedius,.....
So..... NAD amps... if you can get an old 3020 the straight first model 3020 with no other suffixes is the nutz..... when it came out it was rated by hi-fi mags as better than most amps up to 5 or 6 times the price !!!.... yamaha realistic sound amps are cool too...Technics SUV amps are pokey....Older Sansui amps are the nuts too...... if you want power amp, and old s/h Quad is good.... all of them have very low harmonic distortion figures..... just check they are ok, and the power supply doesnt hum like fuck, cos that is very irritating when alone and working and it is quiet....
speakers... shit...er...... NS10's are easy to come by, I personaly don't like 'em, but.. alot of A&R people use 'em...... check the new ranges from the Big music companies like Alesis , Soundcraft , Tannoy etc..... or find a pair of good british bookshelf units....old A&R A38's are WELL sought after.... or (drool) a pair of old Dual-Concentric Tannoys ...although they will be out of budget.....I hate JBL's, don't ask me why, although the bigger bookshelf size ones are ok.............. I dunno, there is SO much choice... in the end, you will still have to set them up right (the distance from the rear wall behind the speaker is important for it's bottom end response....), good thick cable (mains house cable is good it is cheap and all copper and thick....).. make sure they are in-phase.... and get used to the room.....
see... this is where all this shite speaker nmanufacturers talk is visible.... go to a speaker section in a synth/studio shop... with a set-up where they can switch between speakers.... notice anything???...... absolutely !!... every pair sounds totally different !!!... NOW.... they ALL claim to be accurate & with no colouration, studio quality etc blah blah etc...... HA!!... if that was the case, they would all sound the fucking same surely !?!!...... it's all a bunch of cobblers..... cos no two people have the same frequency response to their hearing anyway....
Message 19/21 05-Aug-98 @ 05:41 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
buggo
Posts: 8
Link?: No link
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decreasing delay times? you mean the one I suggested in the reverb thread, or the Norman Cook thingy...?
Yeh i really like bass with distortion...and I got a compressor pedal in the mail to me, so something new to add to my chain!! he he...maybe it'll help.
One question for whoever...I have an old 6-channel powered mixer that sucks ass and I guess it has what you'd call low headroom...that is whenever I turn the input gain up (in effect running a hotter signal in from the get-go) I get distortion, even at fairly low levels...this is great but it's the wrong type of distortion, plus i get it when i don't want it! If i want distortion i usually use fuzz...overdriven distortion is often really messy....anything I can do until I can afford a new mixer (lookin at the 1404vlz) to help my mixer do a little better with this?
Yeh i really like bass with distortion...and I got a compressor pedal in the mail to me, so something new to add to my chain!! he he...maybe it'll help.
One question for whoever...I have an old 6-channel powered mixer that sucks ass and I guess it has what you'd call low headroom...that is whenever I turn the input gain up (in effect running a hotter signal in from the get-go) I get distortion, even at fairly low levels...this is great but it's the wrong type of distortion, plus i get it when i don't want it! If i want distortion i usually use fuzz...overdriven distortion is often really messy....anything I can do until I can afford a new mixer (lookin at the 1404vlz) to help my mixer do a little better with this?
Message 20/21 05-Aug-98 @ 08:47 AM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
Watch out when trying to get sub bass with analog rez... It's hard to get the note you want (tho we're making dance music here, no one really gives a fuck about staying in key hehe..) But yeah, loads of sub... Hehe.. the dx7 does nice subs, as I've found.. Damn, I can't imagine life without FM now... How the hell are you supposed to make Detroit Techno without it? (Not that I'm making Detroit Techno, but that's besides the point)
Message 21/21 05-Aug-98 @ 12:12 PM - RE: Types of useful bass synthesis
YUP... TONE GOES OUT THE WINDOW almost, IT IS SO IMPERCEPTIBLE... SO YOU CAN USE DETUNED DRUMS for sub-bass.... like an 808 kik or FM log drums etc.... and they are tunable/playable via keys in cases
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