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Forums - Music techology
Subject: something to think about
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Original Message 1/29 12-Feb-04 @ 11:11 AM - something to think about
Alright, you know how kids are always going "How do I make my mixes sound better?" and what not. The answer is so simple really. Just love what you do, study and practice. Think about it all day, every day for years and keep learning, keep trying new ideas all the time. First off you have to be creative enough to come up with a good idea and some people just don't have that. If you do have the ideas then you need to have the patience, knowledge (technical) and confidence to bring it all together into something that you know is good. There aren't any formulas for that. It takes time and effort, more of both than most people have or want to give. People are so quick to ask for eq frequencies and compression settings and what software to use and what synth is good for this and that. There are more than enough books and web resources that will give you general guidelines. Man... this is art and people want recipes. I understand that there is nothing wrong with asking questions, I do it more than most. But when you ask for a decade's worth of knowledge and experience in one broad question it's obvious that you need to be more self sufficient and dig for what you want. Does anyone want the journey from here to there... or is it all about achieving everything right now? I don't know why people think that electronic music is any different from drawing, writing, sculpting, etc... You don't see people on forums asking "How do I paint like Michelangelo?" but somehow... because you can click a few notes into a drum grid on a shareware program and say "Whoa I made a beat!" the idea that a finished product is right around the corner presents itself. Then people start doing stuff and in a month's time don't understand why their mixes aren't on wax yet. You can load a drum kit consisting of clean hits that are already processed to work together into a softsampler, spend a while learning to write basic patterns, then throw a sampled bassline or melody over it... and on pc speakers hear a real track. This is akin to doing a decent job on a paint by numbers project and then expecting to paint for a living. It's normal to be ambitious at first and you should be, but you have to keep things in perspective.
There is something that a lot of people forget... In dance music half of the art is in the mixing and engineering. It's not a science, it's taking theory and technique and learning it so well that it becomes transparent... and you start using that knowledge in a thoughtless, fluid way. It's the fact that you know the rules and know them well enough to break them in your own fashion. The guy that engineered the latest pop tune on the radio would probably do a rotten job at making an underground dance tune tear it up because that is not his passion. If you don't really want something it's just not gonna happen. If you do and have the knack for it, it will. It's just a natural progression. That has been the way forward since the beginning.
Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification. There was a time when you had to commit yourself to this because you had no choice but to spend a lot of cash just to get started. Then you had to rely on your own ambition and creativity for new techniques. It seems like the attitudes have gone wrong in dance music. People used to take it as a joke because they thought it was easy to do... just computer generated, robotic beats. Now people are taking it seriously, trying to be producers and want it to be just that easy. I don't get it. Comments?
There is something that a lot of people forget... In dance music half of the art is in the mixing and engineering. It's not a science, it's taking theory and technique and learning it so well that it becomes transparent... and you start using that knowledge in a thoughtless, fluid way. It's the fact that you know the rules and know them well enough to break them in your own fashion. The guy that engineered the latest pop tune on the radio would probably do a rotten job at making an underground dance tune tear it up because that is not his passion. If you don't really want something it's just not gonna happen. If you do and have the knack for it, it will. It's just a natural progression. That has been the way forward since the beginning.
Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification. There was a time when you had to commit yourself to this because you had no choice but to spend a lot of cash just to get started. Then you had to rely on your own ambition and creativity for new techniques. It seems like the attitudes have gone wrong in dance music. People used to take it as a joke because they thought it was easy to do... just computer generated, robotic beats. Now people are taking it seriously, trying to be producers and want it to be just that easy. I don't get it. Comments?
Message 2/29 12-Feb-04 @ 11:54 AM - RE: something to think about
no comments it all seems covered but i may well cross post (on another forum) this if ok as there are some peeps who would benefit from such grounded ideas....
greg
greg
Message 3/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:00 PM - RE: something to think about
Yeah, take it anywhere you want if you think it would be a positive thing, thanks.
Message 4/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:21 PM - RE: something to think about
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
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"I don't know why people think that electronic music is any different from drawing, writing, sculpting, etc... You don't see people on forums asking "How do I paint like Michelangelo?" but somehow... because you can click a few notes into a drum grid on a shareware program and say "Whoa I made a beat!" the idea that a finished product is right around the corner presents itself. Then people start doing stuff and in a month's time don't understand why their mixes aren't on wax yet. "
You know, I have never looked at it that way. Very well put. Nice one SJ!
Steve.
You know, I have never looked at it that way. Very well put. Nice one SJ!
Steve.
Message 5/29 12-Feb-04 @ 12:48 PM - RE: something to think about
I still know people who are into rock or classical or other kinds of music that say "I don't get it. Isn't electronic music just something where you press a button and there you go?" That is so lame and tells me they are not even really artists. You know, putting the element of personal taste aside, I think most artists who have walked the walk can seperate art from bullshit in other genres or artforms even when they they have no experience in a particular artform. There is something in art that shouts out depth, knowledge and experience, or doesn't. Sometimes you get fooled but for the most part I think the mind and heart recognizes it.
Message 6/29 12-Feb-04 @ 01:27 PM - RE: something to think about
That's exactly the problem. Writing the tune is the easy bit. It’s the production that takes ages to learn. Making something that is going to sound good in a club is well hard. It took me 3 years of bashing the studio every night after work and every weekend to get to the stage now where I'm finally releasing stuff and giving CDR's to DJ mates to play in clubs and my tracks stand up (in production) terms to most of the stuff in the market place. I had to make huge sacrafices, like dump my girlfriend and only seeing my mates maybe twice a month. I went through emotional turnmoil for 2 1/2 years of thinking, "I'm shit, this is too hard, I'm rubbish, why am I doing this, it takes up too much time", etc. It was only by sheer will power that I've finally reached the end of the tunnel. Sure you never stop learning and as soon as you get to level 3, you wanna be at level 4 and it’s a constant battle but those 2 1/2 years of blood, sweat and tears were worth it. I know that sounds a bit cheesey but its my experience of studio/club life.
Message 7/29 12-Feb-04 @ 01:51 PM - RE: something to think about
me three....i feel im slowly getting to where i wanna be and im in no rush...
ive had far too many debates with 'real' (read guitarists) musicians who ask why i dont play the guitar in a band anymore....and it always comes down to 'oh its all computers'- i don't need one, 'oh its just beat matching'- for some yes but someone has to write the beats in the first place, 'oh its all samples'- well yes it can be but tell me where i can record a drummer who has a kick drum suitable for house and ill go get my mic out, ill still be sampling....
ok i guess my point is that they slag something they dont actually understand, dismiss something as easy, unsoulful....wheras in fact for me its easy to write a guitar tune and record with a band then write a really good electronic tune....i can hold my own in arguments about all kind of music genres non e-musos (ok the majority of them) often cant get involved in debates aboyt emusic cos they are too ignorant about the styles, the scenes, the history and how its made.....
think ive told this before but when i was in the studio audience for put it to the test with carol voderman (stoppid uni thing don't ask) they had a fetaure about a 40yrold mum making a dance tune, they took her into a studio, the producer helped her put some ready made loops togther and then they palyed the result to her kids (numpty's the both of them) who could not work out that she 'wrote' it (like she did)- that too me has been the best/worst example of the disinformation about electronic music....
phew!
greg
ive had far too many debates with 'real' (read guitarists) musicians who ask why i dont play the guitar in a band anymore....and it always comes down to 'oh its all computers'- i don't need one, 'oh its just beat matching'- for some yes but someone has to write the beats in the first place, 'oh its all samples'- well yes it can be but tell me where i can record a drummer who has a kick drum suitable for house and ill go get my mic out, ill still be sampling....
ok i guess my point is that they slag something they dont actually understand, dismiss something as easy, unsoulful....wheras in fact for me its easy to write a guitar tune and record with a band then write a really good electronic tune....i can hold my own in arguments about all kind of music genres non e-musos (ok the majority of them) often cant get involved in debates aboyt emusic cos they are too ignorant about the styles, the scenes, the history and how its made.....
think ive told this before but when i was in the studio audience for put it to the test with carol voderman (stoppid uni thing don't ask) they had a fetaure about a 40yrold mum making a dance tune, they took her into a studio, the producer helped her put some ready made loops togther and then they palyed the result to her kids (numpty's the both of them) who could not work out that she 'wrote' it (like she did)- that too me has been the best/worst example of the disinformation about electronic music....
phew!
greg
Message 8/29 12-Feb-04 @ 03:58 PM - RE: something to think about
Damn this thread was moved. Next I won't see it here and I'll find it in the soundcard section.
Seriously, good move.
Seriously, good move.
Message 9/29 12-Feb-04 @ 04:01 PM Edit: 12-Feb-04 | 04:01 PM - RE: something to think about
Eventually the message will get through that electronic based music making equipment, be it a PC/MAC DAW, a collection of vintage analogue synths or the latest Roland/Korg/Yamaha (delete as appropriate) groove box, are just tools for musical creativity like every other musical instrument.
And whilst its true that these (newer) tools do facilitate the creation of a type of music in some form or another, it still ultimately comes down to the expression presented by the musician/producer etc. No expression? No individuality? Then you sound just like everything else.. easy(ish) to pick up... difficult to master.. isn't that the way of the world?
And whilst its true that these (newer) tools do facilitate the creation of a type of music in some form or another, it still ultimately comes down to the expression presented by the musician/producer etc. No expression? No individuality? Then you sound just like everything else.. easy(ish) to pick up... difficult to master.. isn't that the way of the world?
Message 10/29 12-Feb-04 @ 04:07 PM - RE: something to think about
that's one of the nicest posts i've read here in a long time sj....necessary and well-said. thanks.
i'd also like to say welcome to tom jenkins who apparently wants to share his underground-house expertise with us and not just slag dt'ers for "not getting it".
i, for one...am eager to start my next track at 128bpm.... of course the mix will be shite but the tempo will be proper for some minutes.
and of course after that ....the tempo will be 99 or 109.
i think the amount of raw technical knowledge skills and expertise required to make a song SOUND good...whether the tune is crap or not......is a painfully elusive goal for me. having come from an art background where expression and spontaneity are tantamount to god...and technique is secondary.....it's easy to let the actual mechanics take the short-end priority-wise. this can take it's toll as those expressions require some sonic foundation by which they can make themselves heard by others.
conversely, there's those that couldn't pen a tune if they had to and yet via loop software...and a universe of libraries...you got kids making tunes which sound like veteran producers sweated over them.
i am always interested in lessons regarding eQing and compression for instance.
even easy tricks and tips if they help make the music along and don't take away from it's originality.
anyway...it's good to hear some fresh voices and it'd be even greater to hear some
fresh tracks representing these perspectives.
i know how often i've been completely moved by some young house dj spinning some deep crazy rhythm with some spastic horn bit flying all about and this bass just pumping and wobbling all about and thinking...how the hell does he do that?
and all i could was dance.
i'd also like to say welcome to tom jenkins who apparently wants to share his underground-house expertise with us and not just slag dt'ers for "not getting it".
i, for one...am eager to start my next track at 128bpm.... of course the mix will be shite but the tempo will be proper for some minutes.
and of course after that ....the tempo will be 99 or 109.
i think the amount of raw technical knowledge skills and expertise required to make a song SOUND good...whether the tune is crap or not......is a painfully elusive goal for me. having come from an art background where expression and spontaneity are tantamount to god...and technique is secondary.....it's easy to let the actual mechanics take the short-end priority-wise. this can take it's toll as those expressions require some sonic foundation by which they can make themselves heard by others.
conversely, there's those that couldn't pen a tune if they had to and yet via loop software...and a universe of libraries...you got kids making tunes which sound like veteran producers sweated over them.
i am always interested in lessons regarding eQing and compression for instance.
even easy tricks and tips if they help make the music along and don't take away from it's originality.
anyway...it's good to hear some fresh voices and it'd be even greater to hear some
fresh tracks representing these perspectives.
i know how often i've been completely moved by some young house dj spinning some deep crazy rhythm with some spastic horn bit flying all about and this bass just pumping and wobbling all about and thinking...how the hell does he do that?
and all i could was dance.
Message 11/29 12-Feb-04 @ 04:41 PM - RE: something to think about
SJ... nice comparison to painting. will make a great argument in any electronic music bashing discussion
Message 13/29 12-Feb-04 @ 07:43 PM - RE: something to think about
michelangelo? does anybody know what colours he used?
trouble is, no one's worried about loving what they do, just how much love they get for doing it. if you can change that, we'll get somewhere.
trouble is, no one's worried about loving what they do, just how much love they get for doing it. if you can change that, we'll get somewhere.
Message 14/29 12-Feb-04 @ 08:24 PM - RE: something to think about
I wouldnt say "no one"
there are people who love what they do, AND want to get paid for it.
best of both worlds?
worst?
there are people who love what they do, AND want to get paid for it.
best of both worlds?
worst?
Message 15/29 12-Feb-04 @ 08:46 PM - RE: something to think about
"just how much love they get for doing it."
That is a huge problem for every artist. Very nicely said!
I don't agree that everyone can make electronic music now that we've got Reason, P5 and Acid... That's only have the work those programs do for you.
You know why there aren't enough LIVE electronic musicians? Because they suck! Very few e-musicians can keep up with the quality that the DJ's spin... so many BECOME DJ's as well as musicians... I know tons of mediocre DJ's who are "really producers"! and the reason is they aren't very good at it... they get by, they make a track, and it works... but it doesn't shine, it doesn't move... and if you can't keep up with the vinyl being spun in the other room, you shouldn't be on stage!
So don't worry so much about all these kids making beats in their bedrooms... they'll get it together or they'll get on with their lives...
I see electronic music as the new punk rock. punk rock democratized music, because you didn't have to be very good to be in a band and make some tunes... but to be truly good, to get attention and make an impact, you had to hone the craft, deliver the message intelligently and learn how to play well (hehe, OK, "well" is relative in punk rock, but you get the point). It's good that all of these kids are making music. And it's sure that there will be more "wheat" in 5 years than we have today, once it's seperated form the "chaff".
e
That is a huge problem for every artist. Very nicely said!
I don't agree that everyone can make electronic music now that we've got Reason, P5 and Acid... That's only have the work those programs do for you.
You know why there aren't enough LIVE electronic musicians? Because they suck! Very few e-musicians can keep up with the quality that the DJ's spin... so many BECOME DJ's as well as musicians... I know tons of mediocre DJ's who are "really producers"! and the reason is they aren't very good at it... they get by, they make a track, and it works... but it doesn't shine, it doesn't move... and if you can't keep up with the vinyl being spun in the other room, you shouldn't be on stage!
So don't worry so much about all these kids making beats in their bedrooms... they'll get it together or they'll get on with their lives...
I see electronic music as the new punk rock. punk rock democratized music, because you didn't have to be very good to be in a band and make some tunes... but to be truly good, to get attention and make an impact, you had to hone the craft, deliver the message intelligently and learn how to play well (hehe, OK, "well" is relative in punk rock, but you get the point). It's good that all of these kids are making music. And it's sure that there will be more "wheat" in 5 years than we have today, once it's seperated form the "chaff".
e
Message 16/29 13-Feb-04 @ 01:45 AM - RE: something to think about
Excellent thoughts, everyone. I'm glad to see such a positive response to my spontaneous desire to speak my mind about what I see going on.
Influx... what triggered it was reading so many posts on this forum and others where aspiring producers want answers to questions only they can answer with their own effort. Xoxos' comment about "how much love they get for doing it" just might be the biggest problem. They want that love asap and they want shortcuts. Like Cydonia Cell said "they'll get it together or they'll get on with their lives." So it's all good, but maybe more conversations like these will get newbies thinking in a healthy way about what they are trying to do, and that just means more great music for all of us.
Influx... what triggered it was reading so many posts on this forum and others where aspiring producers want answers to questions only they can answer with their own effort. Xoxos' comment about "how much love they get for doing it" just might be the biggest problem. They want that love asap and they want shortcuts. Like Cydonia Cell said "they'll get it together or they'll get on with their lives." So it's all good, but maybe more conversations like these will get newbies thinking in a healthy way about what they are trying to do, and that just means more great music for all of us.
Message 17/29 13-Feb-04 @ 02:09 AM - RE: something to think about
it's obvious our discussions here often lead one into one another.
threads interweave to create a web. sometimes a tangled one.
anyone with any observational skills would see this thread was a necessary step/stone within a site/medium which was designed to inspire occasionally serious discussion> if even at the risk of fomenting dissent dislike and disagreement...perhaps even distrust.
sometimes it takes an apparent outsider to say the right thing.
heh.
as for needing love. that's human. we all need it and want it.
as for getting it for being cute or funny or doing really cool music man/mom.....well....
that's another part.
sometimes....and i think it was lips jagger who said it best....
you can't always get what you want........but you know sometimes......
you get.....what you need.
threads interweave to create a web. sometimes a tangled one.
anyone with any observational skills would see this thread was a necessary step/stone within a site/medium which was designed to inspire occasionally serious discussion> if even at the risk of fomenting dissent dislike and disagreement...perhaps even distrust.
sometimes it takes an apparent outsider to say the right thing.
heh.
as for needing love. that's human. we all need it and want it.
as for getting it for being cute or funny or doing really cool music man/mom.....well....
that's another part.
sometimes....and i think it was lips jagger who said it best....
you can't always get what you want........but you know sometimes......
you get.....what you need.
Message 18/29 13-Feb-04 @ 07:02 AM Edit: 13-Feb-04 | 07:04 AM - RE: something to think about
"the idea that a finished product is right around the corner presents itself"
"trouble is, no one's worried about loving what they do, just how much love they get for doing it. if you can change that, we'll get somewhere. "
Beautiful ideas, wonderful thread. I only hope we all actually believe these things when we sit down behind our computers or whatevers and actually write a song. The idea that these things come from us... and we deserve credit for our creations... is, to me, ridiculous. When people submit themselves to the creative process fully and compose what they really hear instead of what they want to hear, that's when true genius comes forth. It's not how "good" you are, but how willing you are to listen... it's not putting forth a product, but putting forth yourself.
Most people don't even stop to think about whether or not they actually have anything to say. [shrug]
In a session I had the other day, this old jazzhead was quoting someone, saying "true art is creation in absence of social expectation." I like that, and reserve the right to repeat it as much as necessary. Though I probably am paraphrasing already
"trouble is, no one's worried about loving what they do, just how much love they get for doing it. if you can change that, we'll get somewhere. "
Beautiful ideas, wonderful thread. I only hope we all actually believe these things when we sit down behind our computers or whatevers and actually write a song. The idea that these things come from us... and we deserve credit for our creations... is, to me, ridiculous. When people submit themselves to the creative process fully and compose what they really hear instead of what they want to hear, that's when true genius comes forth. It's not how "good" you are, but how willing you are to listen... it's not putting forth a product, but putting forth yourself.
Most people don't even stop to think about whether or not they actually have anything to say. [shrug]
In a session I had the other day, this old jazzhead was quoting someone, saying "true art is creation in absence of social expectation." I like that, and reserve the right to repeat it as much as necessary. Though I probably am paraphrasing already
Message 19/29 13-Feb-04 @ 09:05 AM - RE: something to think about
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Those who want love as a result of what they do are rarely artists, just those who seek fame. They are the same people who always need a girlfriend, and are always looking for approval from their peers. These people aren't a threat to music as I don't see how they could ever make good music in the first place. Sure, they get used and thrust in our faces by the major companies, but they themselves are responsible for very little.
"Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification"
If anything, I see this as the biggest threat to electronic music. Just as is the case for software developers in the solutions industry, it seems as though decent electronic artists are not given enough time or respect to be able to produce and sell a well made product. People are so used to technology giving them what they want, when they want it, and fail to realise that a good product is often the result of high-level expertise and experience and most of all, it takes time. And so the quick-and-cheap-to-make, minimal-effort, music seems to be the order of the day. Though, thankfully, I do see signs of these foundations beginning to crumble (ever so slightly).
Steve.
"Nowadays it is so easy to start making music with computers... everyone wants instant gratification"
If anything, I see this as the biggest threat to electronic music. Just as is the case for software developers in the solutions industry, it seems as though decent electronic artists are not given enough time or respect to be able to produce and sell a well made product. People are so used to technology giving them what they want, when they want it, and fail to realise that a good product is often the result of high-level expertise and experience and most of all, it takes time. And so the quick-and-cheap-to-make, minimal-effort, music seems to be the order of the day. Though, thankfully, I do see signs of these foundations beginning to crumble (ever so slightly).
Steve.
Message 20/29 13-Feb-04 @ 09:27 AM - RE: something to think about
SJ I borrowed your post, and put it somewhere where this type of sadness happens far too often:
Here
oh, and psy...if one is just "channeling" then..is it "putting yourself out there?"
Here
oh, and psy...if one is just "channeling" then..is it "putting yourself out there?"
Message 21/29 13-Feb-04 @ 10:21 AM - RE: something to think about
heh - yeah interesting concept - a certain Sufi master always says he gets tons of really ill thought-out questions asked of him, and he reckons if you get a piece of paper and work out EXACTLY what the question is that you want to ask him, in 90% of cases you will have the answer right there in front of you!... He says people dont really define what it is they want to ask
a good example is people will ask on forums a question about their PC soundcard and omit to even list the pc spec or the soundcard make/model !!
*sigh*
Computer Music forums are the top one for that - lol!.. some of the questions are bloody ludicrous - Like driving into a garage and saying "My car isnt working properly, please fix it"
"uhu!", says the mechanic... "What exactly is wrong with it?...."
here we go again....
Perhaps it's all part of the 'Instant fix' world we live in - The way I got my kid to where he is now is this:
I started him with just a PC, cubase VST and a GM soundcard - NOTHING else... he didnt know VSTi's existed at this point - that was deliberate
after a year or more he came to me and said he really knew VST quite well, but was finding the sounds were letting him down.
THEN I added REASON, and some VSTi's and showed him how to initialise and work REWIRE
after another year I added a MIC & Pre-amp setup to get vocals down
Now he has dual screens too - next it's a proper pair of powered monitors and his setup will be complete - and nope - just cos he uses his cheap AIWA or whatever Hi-Fi unit for the monitoring doesnt mean his mixes are badly balanced cos he gradualy learned how to eq everything to sound like his CD's
Thing is, by restricting what he had at the beginning he was forced to exploit what he DID have.
I think my favourite story in this vein is the old one about the alchemist - In the old days the europeans got hold of some arabic texts which talked about alchemy and they took it literaly, not knowing it was a coded meaning for altering the inner being of a person, to transmute the person from a raw animal to a human to something higher...
anyways, this guy goes to a master who's reputed to know the secret of alchemy... he asks him to teach him how to change metal into gold - The master says "Well, you'll have to stay with me and perform various stuff & tasks I request of you, and it's not going to be easy y'know... and it'll take a long time also"
"Ok says the guy... anything you say, I just have to know how to do it!"
and off they go... Every day the guy pesters the master... "When can I learn how to turn metal into gold"
"Ah!", says the master.... "Not yet, first I want you to do such and such today"
this goes on for a few years with the guy asking every day, and the master saying; "Not today, i want you to do such and such a task now"
eventualy one day after years have passed, the master walks into the room and the student is beavering away at his desk on some task he's been set
The master says:
"Well... I'm ready to teach you how to turn metal into gold... let's do it!!"
Without looking up from his work the student replies; "Not now... I'm busy"
heh - lol!!
a good example is people will ask on forums a question about their PC soundcard and omit to even list the pc spec or the soundcard make/model !!
*sigh*
Computer Music forums are the top one for that - lol!.. some of the questions are bloody ludicrous - Like driving into a garage and saying "My car isnt working properly, please fix it"
"uhu!", says the mechanic... "What exactly is wrong with it?...."
here we go again....
Perhaps it's all part of the 'Instant fix' world we live in - The way I got my kid to where he is now is this:
I started him with just a PC, cubase VST and a GM soundcard - NOTHING else... he didnt know VSTi's existed at this point - that was deliberate
after a year or more he came to me and said he really knew VST quite well, but was finding the sounds were letting him down.
THEN I added REASON, and some VSTi's and showed him how to initialise and work REWIRE
after another year I added a MIC & Pre-amp setup to get vocals down
Now he has dual screens too - next it's a proper pair of powered monitors and his setup will be complete - and nope - just cos he uses his cheap AIWA or whatever Hi-Fi unit for the monitoring doesnt mean his mixes are badly balanced cos he gradualy learned how to eq everything to sound like his CD's
Thing is, by restricting what he had at the beginning he was forced to exploit what he DID have.
I think my favourite story in this vein is the old one about the alchemist - In the old days the europeans got hold of some arabic texts which talked about alchemy and they took it literaly, not knowing it was a coded meaning for altering the inner being of a person, to transmute the person from a raw animal to a human to something higher...
anyways, this guy goes to a master who's reputed to know the secret of alchemy... he asks him to teach him how to change metal into gold - The master says "Well, you'll have to stay with me and perform various stuff & tasks I request of you, and it's not going to be easy y'know... and it'll take a long time also"
"Ok says the guy... anything you say, I just have to know how to do it!"
and off they go... Every day the guy pesters the master... "When can I learn how to turn metal into gold"
"Ah!", says the master.... "Not yet, first I want you to do such and such today"
this goes on for a few years with the guy asking every day, and the master saying; "Not today, i want you to do such and such a task now"
eventualy one day after years have passed, the master walks into the room and the student is beavering away at his desk on some task he's been set
The master says:
"Well... I'm ready to teach you how to turn metal into gold... let's do it!!"
Without looking up from his work the student replies; "Not now... I'm busy"
heh - lol!!
Message 22/29 13-Feb-04 @ 10:23 AM - RE: something to think about
like my young room-mate from tecate mexico telling me my music isn't techno and
then goes in his room and it's boom boom
ooohhh babay baby...whatchya got?!?!?!.
good quote from your jazz-head psy.
i often feel much of my best music was done in pure isolation and that my stuff went downhill when i was in a more social-setting.
then again some of my best was done in full view of others.
sometimes that setting will actually force you to embrace the best which is within you
in hopes of a softer fall. at other times...the worst.
we are channels and as cahnnels we ARE part of the cosmos.....it would be silly to suggest we are not, ourselves, a part of the universe which, too, occasionally requires hearing. i think a human can speak for a star when a star is too distant to be heard.
and so yeah....spang's question is a valid one.
i still try to believe in all things.
then goes in his room and it's boom boom
ooohhh babay baby...whatchya got?!?!?!.
good quote from your jazz-head psy.
i often feel much of my best music was done in pure isolation and that my stuff went downhill when i was in a more social-setting.
then again some of my best was done in full view of others.
sometimes that setting will actually force you to embrace the best which is within you
in hopes of a softer fall. at other times...the worst.
we are channels and as cahnnels we ARE part of the cosmos.....it would be silly to suggest we are not, ourselves, a part of the universe which, too, occasionally requires hearing. i think a human can speak for a star when a star is too distant to be heard.
and so yeah....spang's question is a valid one.
i still try to believe in all things.
Message 23/29 13-Feb-04 @ 10:55 AM - RE: something to think about
a truly great thing about being a successful emuso is that your not tied to the whole corporate fame-machine as hip-hop/rock/pop artists are....and its great that you can make music have people hear and like it but you can remain relativly unknow to the wider public...i wouldn't know even a quarter of the emusos i like- in fact often joke to myself that when im walking round london i probably pass a couple of artists i really like but have no clue....
i mean would anybody recognise daft punk if they passed you in the street? i dont think ive ever seen under the masks....
that would be sooo cool to have some shit hot music out there but be able to go down the supermarket or pub as normal....that too me is another important difference....
greg
i mean would anybody recognise daft punk if they passed you in the street? i dont think ive ever seen under the masks....
that would be sooo cool to have some shit hot music out there but be able to go down the supermarket or pub as normal....that too me is another important difference....
greg
Message 24/29 13-Feb-04 @ 02:45 PM - RE: something to think about
On the subject of "electonic music is not real" I have actually got into physical fights with ppl saying that techno or whatever isn´t "real" music. That pisses me of bigtime!!
I make my music with all the love and care I can possibly master, and so, these ppl saying electronic music is all kid´s stuff really breaks my heart.
sad.
I make my music with all the love and care I can possibly master, and so, these ppl saying electronic music is all kid´s stuff really breaks my heart.
sad.
Message 25/29 13-Feb-04 @ 02:47 PM - RE: something to think about
i guess what i was intimating (and spang, scuse the absolutes, i just talk like that, on fwiw basis is that capitalism dictates that the value of a creation is based on it's value to others, ie. the non-creator (not going to argue about where is and where isn't capitalism, it's a maxim) which is why most of the time monkeys work with a vague construct of 'pleasurable to masses' instead of concrete knowledge of self.
k's 'instant fix' factor is the same way.. in capitalism, everythnig is instantly available for a fee, and guess what.. you're entitled to it.. you deserve it, why it would be a *crime* if you didn't get what you want instantly :p
that's how it works. land needs to be un-owned, people need license to earn for themselves.
when we all work for ourselves, then we will reap the true benefit of working together, w/o ripping each other off in the process.
is that capitalism dictates that the value of a creation is based on it's value to others, ie. the non-creator (not going to argue about where is and where isn't capitalism, it's a maxim) which is why most of the time monkeys work with a vague construct of 'pleasurable to masses' instead of concrete knowledge of self.k's 'instant fix' factor is the same way.. in capitalism, everythnig is instantly available for a fee, and guess what.. you're entitled to it.. you deserve it, why it would be a *crime* if you didn't get what you want instantly :p
that's how it works. land needs to be un-owned, people need license to earn for themselves.
when we all work for ourselves, then we will reap the true benefit of working together, w/o ripping each other off in the process.
Message 26/29 13-Feb-04 @ 03:53 PM - RE: something to think about
it's always fun to realize someone else was inspired to hammer away a lengthy post at the same time i was doing so.
i have a few thoughts still on this matter/matters as per ownership of music and who we are as channels> or even at some point genuine co-creators of a tiny part of that source-code which comprises art & music.
for now.... it'lll suffice to say that i agree with x when it comes to what i call
"measuring a man by the size of his wallet".
or a song by the amount of copies it sold.
it's nice when a work can somehow please or uplift a great number of people but
it's wrong when one's basic purpose for doing the work is simply to do so on an empirical level....one which pretends to be measurable.
affectations of the soul are simply not quantifiable.
i have a few thoughts still on this matter/matters as per ownership of music and who we are as channels> or even at some point genuine co-creators of a tiny part of that source-code which comprises art & music.
for now.... it'lll suffice to say that i agree with x when it comes to what i call
"measuring a man by the size of his wallet".
or a song by the amount of copies it sold.
it's nice when a work can somehow please or uplift a great number of people but
it's wrong when one's basic purpose for doing the work is simply to do so on an empirical level....one which pretends to be measurable.
affectations of the soul are simply not quantifiable.
Message 27/29 13-Feb-04 @ 03:59 PM - RE: something to think about
fights? ha ha ha...im constantly arguing with people about this...especially those who are like 'oh i hate commercial music' (dud all music is commercial!)
what ive found with many of the 'real' music fans is that they have a very limited taste in musical genres...
i love all kinds of music...i often find the ones slaggin' e-music often only like metal, or some guitar based style and like nothing else....of course as soon as i find this out i remind myself not to pay attantion to anything they say..but it seems to be happening all too often....
greg
what ive found with many of the 'real' music fans is that they have a very limited taste in musical genres...
i love all kinds of music...i often find the ones slaggin' e-music often only like metal, or some guitar based style and like nothing else....of course as soon as i find this out i remind myself not to pay attantion to anything they say..but it seems to be happening all too often....
greg
Message 28/29 13-Feb-04 @ 04:02 PM - RE: something to think about
I have no problem admitting I like a few Daniel Beddingfield tracks.
Message 29/29 13-Feb-04 @ 07:54 PM - RE: something to think about
yes Manthra, it is VERY sad... but the best bit is, when THEY try to do it... that's ALWAYS good for a laugh 
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
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