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Forums - Music techology
Subject: swing and groove secrets
Original Message Date: 28-Jan-04 @ 05:13 PM - swing and groove secrets
A question on swing and groove if anyones prepared to give up their secrets. You'll get good karma, I promise. How do you people go about injecting some groove in your club tracks. I've been using swing B in Logic and it works OK but I'm not entirely sure how to use swing properly. If I decide to move the 2 and 4 16th notes later by 21 ticks (swing B), then should I make sure that I use this swing setting on everything including all the drums and the bass and all the music?
I was reading that classic hip hop tracks keep the drums strictly quantised but swing the bass whereas classic funk tracks swing the drums but have a strictly quantised bass. I'm making (trying) underground house tracks and I reckon having everything strictly quantised is the best groove but this can't be right cos when I cut up all my favourite tracks (of CD, not vinyl), they seem to have some of their snares, percussion, etc that fall on the 2nd and 4th 16th notes (from what I can make out) on 21 and 41 ticks but when I attempt to do it, its sound sloppy and not tight.
Maybe I'm over analysing but surely groove can't just be about velocity and compression? How do you guys swing your tracks, have everything on the same swing setting or maybe slightly swing the main drums by say 6 ticks and swing the hats and shakers by 21 ticks? Do you think that’s the best way of looking at it?
I'm using my ears, I promise!!!
I was reading that classic hip hop tracks keep the drums strictly quantised but swing the bass whereas classic funk tracks swing the drums but have a strictly quantised bass. I'm making (trying) underground house tracks and I reckon having everything strictly quantised is the best groove but this can't be right cos when I cut up all my favourite tracks (of CD, not vinyl), they seem to have some of their snares, percussion, etc that fall on the 2nd and 4th 16th notes (from what I can make out) on 21 and 41 ticks but when I attempt to do it, its sound sloppy and not tight.
Maybe I'm over analysing but surely groove can't just be about velocity and compression? How do you guys swing your tracks, have everything on the same swing setting or maybe slightly swing the main drums by say 6 ticks and swing the hats and shakers by 21 ticks? Do you think that’s the best way of looking at it?
I'm using my ears, I promise!!!
Message 61/80 11-Feb-04 @ 01:56 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
Craig - since when has house music been about live drummers or drumkits? The first message in this thread included the magic words"underground house".
Message 62/80 11-Feb-04 @ 02:25 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
yeah am not sure anyone mentioned anything was a strict rule for house..starting points yes....
greg
greg
Message 63/80 11-Feb-04 @ 02:41 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
> At slower tempos, like house, some breakbeat, etc...
house? slower tempos? ehhh... what planet are you from? Planet drillcore?
> who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) -
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most
Yeah I know that feeling too well... ;)
house? slower tempos? ehhh... what planet are you from? Planet drillcore?
> who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) -
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most
Yeah I know that feeling too well... ;)
Message 64/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:17 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
> who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) -
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most
Ha ha ha, things must be quite different down the deep south cos its the tranceheads and hardhouse fans who are seen as the cheezy quavers.........
drum n bass still rools (for some reason- is well boring of late) but house and techno are king......
greg
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most
Ha ha ha, things must be quite different down the deep south cos its the tranceheads and hardhouse fans who are seen as the cheezy quavers.........
drum n bass still rools (for some reason- is well boring of late) but house and techno are king......
greg
Message 65/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:40 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
t. jenkins: Having drum elements on different groove/swing settings just sounds wrong and not tight. I tend to use just 3 different swiing settings for my tunes
tom....i'm curious what you mean when you say it's wrong to use different swing-settings and then you say you use 3 different settings?
i know 126 was an old standard for certain house-tempos but i've just recently read djs today don't like tracks any slower than 128 bpm. is this true?
tom....i'm curious what you mean when you say it's wrong to use different swing-settings and then you say you use 3 different settings?
i know 126 was an old standard for certain house-tempos but i've just recently read djs today don't like tracks any slower than 128 bpm. is this true?
Message 66/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:53 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
Obviously I know house isn't about real drummers...All I'm saying is that things groove without swing-C. It's not a hard and fast rule like some present it as.
-Craig
-Craig
Message 67/80 11-Feb-04 @ 04:21 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
What I meant was that its no good pushing the snares forward by a few ticks, then humanizing the shakers differently, then moving the hats to swing B, then changing a few kicks by a couple of ticks, then putting the congas on swing D, then moving the triangle back by 6 ticks, then moving the 2nd hit of the loop forward by 4 ticks, then putting the claps on swing B. I don't do all that as all I do is use a maximum of 3 different swing settings depending on the drum, bass or music part. Hope that makes sense.
Actually the best house DJ's all play at 129bpm so its better to make the tunes slightly slower. If you can get a house track grooving/pushing/bouncing at 128bpm, then your onto a winner I reckon. Everything sounds like its pushing/grooving if you make it at 130-132bpm. I hate anything over 132bpm.
I've got an opinion and I'm going to use it.
Actually the best house DJ's all play at 129bpm so its better to make the tunes slightly slower. If you can get a house track grooving/pushing/bouncing at 128bpm, then your onto a winner I reckon. Everything sounds like its pushing/grooving if you make it at 130-132bpm. I hate anything over 132bpm.
I've got an opinion and I'm going to use it.
Message 68/80 11-Feb-04 @ 07:58 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets
Ok, totally unrelated but, when I said "be nice" I was talking about MCC.
That fella is just like my nextdoor "pain in the ass" neighbour. Old, grumphy and hates kids
"got wogic", blahbalhbalh not interested...
That fella is just like my nextdoor "pain in the ass" neighbour. Old, grumphy and hates kids
"got wogic", blahbalhbalh not interested...
Message 69/80 12-Feb-04 @ 12:20 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets
Ok, I don't use logic... so, maybe I'm ignorant... but.. is this "swing c" "swing d" sh+t preset quantizations in logic? If so, I'll back my statement above up all day long! I think it's friggin' absurd that people are using cookie cutter preset ANYTHING's as a rule for an entire genre of music.
Yeah dude, drill-core's in the 130's (sigh)
I'll say it simpler... you get swing and groove by swingin' and groovin'! NOT, by selecting a quantization form a drop down menu.
Sure there are some things to understand that will help someone learn to swing and groove... like the second and fourth sixteenth position... AND Velocity, and these things are well covered above...
I was responding to all the posters who are ragging on about magic quantization techniques. There's no such thing...
and...
at 128 129 you can poly rythm all friggin' day... just don't screw that kick around if you want house!!! (House was created by mixing different DISCO records together, real drummers playing different rythms, pushing and pulling the beat... then folks started dropping drum loop samples behind 909 kicks, again real drummers playing slightly off the mark, and looped to a clocked beat... now, deep house get's it's rythms from those examples, it's still the same stuff... THAT'S why you guys have formulas and recipes that require digital quantizing and step recording, because you are EMULATING drummers!)
so there...
~
e
Yeah dude, drill-core's in the 130's (sigh)
I'll say it simpler... you get swing and groove by swingin' and groovin'! NOT, by selecting a quantization form a drop down menu.
Sure there are some things to understand that will help someone learn to swing and groove... like the second and fourth sixteenth position... AND Velocity, and these things are well covered above...
I was responding to all the posters who are ragging on about magic quantization techniques. There's no such thing...
and...
at 128 129 you can poly rythm all friggin' day... just don't screw that kick around if you want house!!! (House was created by mixing different DISCO records together, real drummers playing different rythms, pushing and pulling the beat... then folks started dropping drum loop samples behind 909 kicks, again real drummers playing slightly off the mark, and looped to a clocked beat... now, deep house get's it's rythms from those examples, it's still the same stuff... THAT'S why you guys have formulas and recipes that require digital quantizing and step recording, because you are EMULATING drummers!)
so there...
~e
Message 70/80 12-Feb-04 @ 02:39 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets
i'm always interested in hearing what the rules and methods and procedures are for any style of music...lifestyle...crossing the road etc... when it's convenient to do so.
that doesn't mean i'll abide by those conventions.
and of course i'll never attempt to be a house producer. there are so many
(too many??) good producers that already know what they're doing....that suits me fine. i know where to go when i want to hear it....almost.
but i also know that isn't what really strikes me as adventurous on a day-in day-out basis. there's so much more...
like messed-up non-formulaic stuff be it punk or celtic or african and everyone has their own way of doing things....and in some ways seems much more underground to me. machine music can just be so......routine....especially when it occurs within the
constraints of "a scene".
i also think that excitement can be had by being simply naive to those rules and/or even intentionally breaking the law...because....hey...police....snore.
music police?...bigger snore.
as for being nice......i'm the nicest guy on this whole damned site so screw off manthra ya nerd.
that doesn't mean i'll abide by those conventions.
and of course i'll never attempt to be a house producer. there are so many
(too many??) good producers that already know what they're doing....that suits me fine. i know where to go when i want to hear it....almost.
but i also know that isn't what really strikes me as adventurous on a day-in day-out basis. there's so much more...
like messed-up non-formulaic stuff be it punk or celtic or african and everyone has their own way of doing things....and in some ways seems much more underground to me. machine music can just be so......routine....especially when it occurs within the
constraints of "a scene".
i also think that excitement can be had by being simply naive to those rules and/or even intentionally breaking the law...because....hey...police....snore.
music police?...bigger snore.
as for being nice......i'm the nicest guy on this whole damned site so screw off manthra ya nerd.
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