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Subject: swing and groove secrets

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Original Message 1/80 28-Jan-04 @ 05:13 PM - swing and groove secrets

James Burnett

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A question on swing and groove if anyones prepared to give up their secrets. You'll get good karma, I promise. How do you people go about injecting some groove in your club tracks. I've been using swing B in Logic and it works OK but I'm not entirely sure how to use swing properly. If I decide to move the 2 and 4 16th notes later by 21 ticks (swing B), then should I make sure that I use this swing setting on everything including all the drums and the bass and all the music?

I was reading that classic hip hop tracks keep the drums strictly quantised but swing the bass whereas classic funk tracks swing the drums but have a strictly quantised bass. I'm making (trying) underground house tracks and I reckon having everything strictly quantised is the best groove but this can't be right cos when I cut up all my favourite tracks (of CD, not vinyl), they seem to have some of their snares, percussion, etc that fall on the 2nd and 4th 16th notes (from what I can make out) on 21 and 41 ticks but when I attempt to do it, its sound sloppy and not tight.

Maybe I'm over analysing but surely groove can't just be about velocity and compression? How do you guys swing your tracks, have everything on the same swing setting or maybe slightly swing the main drums by say 6 ticks and swing the hats and shakers by 21 ticks? Do you think that�s the best way of looking at it?

I'm using my ears, I promise!!!

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Message 2/80 28-Jan-04 @ 08:16 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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you're overanal~yzing.
every song is different and you should play with formula and then let it go
so to do something else next time.
it sounds like you're really letting things swing way out of sync if you're talking 41 ticks and such.

and...if you don't mind me asking.....are you the doctor?

he's a funny fellow....a man of disguises who just don't quit.
and he always comes here with the best of questions....and he promises! a lot.

he might even be up for an oscar this year if he can keep it up.

sorry for the intrusion....but i had to ask.

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Message 3/80 29-Jan-04 @ 01:59 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Garuna

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Some tracks work with no swing at all: The beats seem to groove because of their respective percussive sounds. For example shakers have a soft attack and will often work with quantized beats because these beats have a harder attack. Sometimes alternating velocity will do it. Some tracks you can move beats wildly and it still seems to flow: I.e. the 4th beat later or the 3rd and 4th beat later than the snap. Often a mix of live drums (non quantized) and quantized beats create a groove. Experiment.

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Message 4/80 29-Jan-04 @ 03:21 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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and for best supporting actor even when the shoot is over.....

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Message 5/80 29-Jan-04 @ 03:52 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Garuna

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Huh?

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Message 6/80 03-Feb-04 @ 05:41 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Noz

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For for the drums in hiphop style beats, by far the best way (IMO) is to hear the groove mentally and just draw it in by hand until it does what you want. It's not like there are more than a few bars to do anyway so you aren't saving much effort using the quantise.

Swing etc are useful for getting other bits like little arps etc in sync quickly but the interest in a swinging breakbeat is the slight offness which may change over 4 bars. You're not gonna get that using a preset.

Having said that Logic's presets are pretty cool for bouncing 4/4 housebeats.

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Message 7/80 04-Feb-04 @ 01:01 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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James... name some tracks with this 'swing'

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Message 8/80 04-Feb-04 @ 02:09 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

DJ Cos

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What a crock of crap. Some people talk shit on DT. Some people talk sense. Don't you know that 41 ticks (Swing C) in Logic is THE classic house groove swing. There is even a London underground house producer called swing C Jeez��...

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Message 9/80 04-Feb-04 @ 05:44 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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yeah... but also we can read

---

....hip hop tracks keep the drums strictly quantised but swing the bass whereas classic funk tracks ....

---

now if he said House... well... I assumed he was talking something else - and mate - dont tell me to get a 'swing' in funk you just slap on some C groove in logic please

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Message 10/80 05-Feb-04 @ 09:06 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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can anyone tell me where the ticks/beats fall with this famous c-swing?

if a straight beat falls like this: 0, 24, 48, 72- what ticks do the beats fall on with the c-swing?

ive been using a couple of settings on mpc and would like to know how they compare and what this c-swing sounds like....

cheers

greg

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Message 11/80 05-Feb-04 @ 09:54 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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well, without firing up logic to check, try what smart-ass says above... 41 ticks... (I assume that's at a base of 192 = 48 p/q/n)

I could check for you later

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Message 12/80 05-Feb-04 @ 10:52 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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cheers k...two things though first i thought the above example was the b swing.....and secondly the 41 ticks didn't make sense to me because say on the 3rd hit of the beat...the one that would fall on the tick 72 i cant shift that 41 ticks either way without it encroaching on another hit of the beat....

ah-ha, i realise that the mpc is 96ppqn so basically i want to use a shift either way of 21.5 (arrggghh!) ticks.......but still i shift the hit on 72 back 21 ticks it will land on 51 which is only 3 ticks off of the 2 hit of the beat.....i think ive confused my self here....

if its not too much trouble to fire up logic that would be cool....i guess im stuck in a world of 96 ppqn which is why all this 41 ticks seemed extreme to say the least!

greg

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Message 13/80 05-Feb-04 @ 12:10 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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I think he meant how one quarter note is positioned - with a hardware unit, just shift the note around till it sounds right I guess. and dont forget to use copious amounts of velocity adjustment on notes to get the groove right.

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Message 14/80 05-Feb-04 @ 12:14 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

beds

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hehe it is 41 as well. geek ;)

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Message 15/80 05-Feb-04 @ 12:35 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Another Bum

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Yea, even JP Soul (who logs in here sometimes) and is signed to Roam Recordings and has had 2 Tunes of the month in both Jokey Slut and Muzik Mag has said on DT that he uses Swing C in Logic (41 ticks).

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Message 16/80 05-Feb-04 @ 01:28 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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yeah yeah yeah im down with the swing and house programming on my mpc and yes velocity is as important as note placement...definitly!!

all i wanted to know is if you put a 16th hihat pattern in logic- quatized it to swing c and then analysed the note placement where would the quarter notes fall?

maybe i should just buy logic do just that and then return it....hehehe

im guess the back beat will be on the money so all '0' and '48' will stay as is but its the off-beat notes i wanna know about....

ive often found that swing will help get that groove but you still need to get your hands dirty with velocity and note length....i just wanna know where these note fall so i can play around further......

greg

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Message 17/80 05-Feb-04 @ 02:11 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Jocy

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Well the 1/4 notes wouldn't fall anywhere but exactly on the 1/4 note cos a swing c moves the 2nd and 4th 16th later by 41 ticks. 240 ticks make up one 16th note in logic so your saying that an mpc has 96 ticks per 16th note or 96 ticks per 1/4 note?

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Message 18/80 05-Feb-04 @ 02:16 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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soz in the process of confusing myself ive confused everyone else..

the mpc has 96 ppqn to the 1/4 note.....

therefore if i wanted to shift a 16th note 41 ticks it would then encroach on the 16th notes....

moving a 16th note that falls on .72 41 ticks either way it will either be in the next beat or at .51 which is three ticks after .48 where a 1/8 note would usually fall....

now i may have confused the issue further (damn i need to learn the right vocab)....

greg

of course it would be typical if after all this palaver that i analyse the placements in my mpc and realise the notes fall in the same place as the swing setting i always use.....

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Message 19/80 05-Feb-04 @ 02:38 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Jory

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Well there is 960 ticks to a 1/4 note in Logic, 480 ticks to an 1/8, 240 ticks to a 1/16 note, 120 ticks to a 32nd note and 60 ticks to a 1/128. Sounds like it�s the same within an MPC but you've just lost the extra 0 as MPC's deal in 10's rather than 100's if that makes sense. I reckon 4 ticks in your MPC represents 40 (41) ticks in Logic. So in your MPC, 1 tick is the equal to 10 ticks in Logic. So a Logic swing B setting in Logic is 21 ticks which will be 2 ticks in your MPC. Swing C is 41 ticks which is 4 ticks later in your MPC.

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Message 20/80 05-Feb-04 @ 02:43 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dub-munkey

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jory you star!!! thanks for turning a rather confusing issue into plain english- it never occured to me that logics resolution was so high, thinking the res levelled at the standard yammy spec which is 498 or something- anyhoo i digress

the one i use for that real slip-slidy feel is 62% which is 5 later and earlier......but now i know.....cheers mate!

greg

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Message 21/80 05-Feb-04 @ 02:58 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Jory

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No problems mate. Now if someone could give me a straight answer to my bass vsti question then that would be cool.

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Message 22/80 05-Feb-04 @ 03:16 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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would love to but am a hardware head...i would be merely speculating..

greg

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Message 23/80 05-Feb-04 @ 06:04 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Pongoid

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Jory, I did. Read it. Then read it again. Your answer is in there.

As for the swing thing, it REALLY is an ear thing. For example check out cats like Vogel. Things are swung all over the place, some none at all in the same groove, but it all works because he's using his ears to tell him what goes where. Trying to equate it down to 'ticks' is not gonna get you a human swing feel. It's going to get you a calculated syncopation. Both have their place, but one is not the other.

Another thing to keep in mind is to pay attention to others' compositions whose feel you are trying to approximate/interpret and figure out where the sounds are NOT falling. For example the hat placement, the kicks, etc..

Ape

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Message 24/80 06-Feb-04 @ 10:01 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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i find swing only useful for house beats and such certainly not looser grooves like hiphop, dub, funk or even faster stuff like dnb.....

greg

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Message 25/80 08-Feb-04 @ 06:33 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

MCC>

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i couldn't think of anything more ridiculous than establishing one's entire
musical identity upon nothing more than a software's implentation of a single mathematical algorithim which determines swing-tick placement.
swing c?!
each and EVERY song he does uses this?

yowzA....that's exactly the sorta thing i do purciate being wurned about.
it's amazing what passes for underground anymore....or why people even bother using the term since it's relevance is increasingly miniscule.

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Message 26/80 08-Feb-04 @ 06:49 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

xoxos

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for generations all the old musos have been saying "ha ha, you think the music lost soul because your generation passed on" - maybe while everyone was repeating this and feeling assured, the new generation really did die

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Message 27/80 09-Feb-04 @ 07:11 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Dr Dude

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MCC and Xoxoxs - you are either both very old or American. Certainly, you have no idea about underground house.

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Message 28/80 09-Feb-04 @ 07:55 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

psylichon

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lol..... oooooooooooooooo!

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Message 29/80 09-Feb-04 @ 08:58 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Garuna

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Message 30/80 09-Feb-04 @ 12:43 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

A London Bod

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hahahhahahh -true. Don't you know about 16B (Omid) who named himself after the 16b swing in Logic. He had a critically claimed house album in 1997 and is more worthy than any of you rubbishers. People don't know their house on here and are happy to throw out random comments that don't mean anything..

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Message 31/80 09-Feb-04 @ 02:15 PM Edit: 09-Feb-04 | 02:16 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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blimey - 1997 - how 'old skool'

who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) - I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver in the eyes of most teenagers..

lol

but perhaps that's just a 'London thing'

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 32/80 09-Feb-04 @ 03:15 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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i do- im 23....most of my mates are into house....then again im also into techno, dub, downtempo stuff alsorts - and the crowds at the house do's ive been too span across the age ranges......

down our way the young un's are into dnb and the old un's are into techno ..... both seem to lsten to that horrible hardhouse shite....then again thats the south for ya!

greg

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Message 33/80 09-Feb-04 @ 03:35 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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well....someone finally figured out that i was both old and american!!!!!
haha...that took a great deal of insight.
but one day, you too will be listening to some same-old stuff and seeing some kids run about as though the true-originators of a "new" progressive sound and...you too will be going bah!
and i will laugh with you.
it's just how it is. and some of it will actually be totally cool.
and that, too, is also how it is.

of course i enjoy house-music and countless other styles but i'd never suggest it was that original....not that originality is god.....but it helps occasionally when one is no longer tied to the cradle or to the
herd....flock....ensemble....congregation.
everybody's gotta believe in something...after all.
anyway....

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Message 34/80 09-Feb-04 @ 04:00 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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i think everyone has totally valid points about groove and swing and how it should change for each song and how you shouldn't get too hung up about it.....

with house production i found this 'magic logic swing' equated to 60% on the mpc, so what? well yeah exactly.... but it does mean i can turn the swing on..bang in a rhythm and it will be nearer to how i want it to groove (of course ill find myself in step edit for the next 2 hours) but its nice to be able to play a beat in and not have to think 'oh i must go and move all those 2nd and 4th 16th notes 4 ticks....

16b eh? i guess its like james originally mentioned- 21 ticks.....cool...thats another setting to play with...

greg

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Message 35/80 09-Feb-04 @ 10:24 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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tools and methods are nice things.

yes.

i know i learned something.

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Message 36/80 10-Feb-04 @ 12:45 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

James Burnett

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See, all you old DTer's, I was right. Thank you all - I knew I was right all along. Fools and losers!!! ahahahhahahhahahabahhhhhabbbbbahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahhhqhahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahah - keep making you marchy, over quantised beats, ahahahahahahahbbaaahhhahahhahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - losers - ahahaahahahbahaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahahhahhahahaha - with your shit beats - ahahgsagghggagagagagagagagagagagagagagaggagagagagagagagaggagagggggabahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa - crap tunes - ahhahahahahahahahahaa!

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Message 37/80 10-Feb-04 @ 03:25 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

MCC>

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don't let your hips fly off your lips.....doing that swang bucky.

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Message 38/80 10-Feb-04 @ 05:53 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Pongoid

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What the fuck kind of mentally retarded shit was that? Over quantized beats? You mean like EVERYTHING gets the 21 tick swing and it's perfect?....uh yeah...ok kid. Old DT'ers rock. If you don't get it, then it's your loss. We have our differences, but it's still an electronic family.

Ape

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Message 39/80 10-Feb-04 @ 07:41 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

cydonia cell

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Hold on!

Don't you guys PLAY your music? Any of you?

I'm not suggesting that it all must be played live into sequencers... but do any of you actually drum? or play notes on keyboards/controllers... or LISTEN to the way poly rythms work together?

Jesus, is their such a specific recipe that you know the LOGIC formula for it? No wonder "underground" all sounds the same, IT REALLY IS... you know this why people say electronic music isn't creative. Thing is, I love house, especially deep groovin' house. But come on, there's more to groove than using a quantization preset!

try drumming, guys. Learn rythm, there's nothing more important to building rythmic music than knowing how to drum. Then you can play your notes in... quantize to taste, not to recipe...

Quit looking for simple tricks that make it easier... easy music is uninspired, uninteresting.

At slower tempos, like house, some breakbeat, etc... you have a lot of room to play with timing, set notes a bit off of the mark. Tweak your sixteenths, and try setting snares off a bit. Don't swing your kicks (usualy, wierdness knows no advices) and PLAY with it... Use your ears ... if it ain't working don't do it. Drummers don't keep playing out of time, if it doesn't work, they switch it up. If you don't have the ears for pploy rythms (that's waht it is when you start creating syncopations with different timing, and beat placement) then develop them. If it ain't workin', you may be in the wrong biz!

But I'm not being mentioned in DJ Magazine, so i may not know what I'm talking about... of course, just 'cause you have a contract doesn't mean you know sh+t either! But that's a different argument innit?

e

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Message 40/80 10-Feb-04 @ 08:58 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

MCC>

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here's atomic dog going 21~ 41> oh...stop what's next? 6 and 1?
oh 61!

ya so overgrown and overground you ridiculous patsy....pretender.

ticket please.

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Message 41/80 10-Feb-04 @ 09:07 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

cydonia cell

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Atomic Dog? That doesn't groove! It's old!!!

e

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Message 42/80 10-Feb-04 @ 09:07 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

MCC>

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and what's almost funny was...james..hey! btw we have the same first name dickwad.....
was the fact that i KNEW you came HERE with your ass-wipe query JUST to stir shit
ya .

now talk about shit-walkers.

lonDon! pwetty boy underground.
oooweeeeee.
got wogic!?

go bugger your lad.
he's waiting anxiously.

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Message 43/80 10-Feb-04 @ 11:11 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

5 tuplet/4

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Hi iam bob the 5 tuplet/4 and my music sounds like a 3 legged donkey playing the
bagpipes whilist building a small wooden shed all quantised to well you know it 5 tuplet/4,
sometimes i move every 97th and 1007th note by 23 ticks, does it swing ? does it f..k?

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Message 44/80 10-Feb-04 @ 11:16 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

5 tuplet/4

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Message 45/80 10-Feb-04 @ 11:25 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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I doubt that was him (james the originator of the thread) really

anyways, the number of 'ticks' is down to master resolution for adding swing, skip or whatever you want to call it. But I think our ranting freind would mean in SX or VST to set the grid quantise to 64T, and wack in at 2.4 and 4.4 - one space/tick or whatever across, so on 2.4.020 - or push it across towards 2.4.021, 2.4.022, 2.4.023 etc.

I kinda like it with the top end on 21's and the perc a bit further acorss on 23/4 but velocity as always is tres important

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Message 46/80 10-Feb-04 @ 11:34 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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housey_groove.mp3

something like that swing (crap sounds, LM7 & VB1 bass quick example)

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Message 47/80 11-Feb-04 @ 12:17 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Manthra

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OH MAN! you are so full of shit... has anybody EVER tried to be somewhat nice. However I did learn something from this thread, so there.

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Message 48/80 11-Feb-04 @ 12:39 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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housey2_41_ticks.mp3

and that's at 41 ticks across - sounds 'skippier' - obviousy without really gettings sounds right it doesnt really do it, and it's very simplified, and a crap bassline & sad sounds (I dont do house)... lol

but the swing is more pronounced anyways at 41...

it's not like it has just one fixed beat sorta style anyways, it's very very broad stuff most of it is using those swings anyways

try those - great stuff

http://www.undergroundhouse.net/ram/slum_science.ram

http://www.undergroundhouse.net/ram/janefitz_sleazeontoast.ram

___________________________________

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Message 49/80 11-Feb-04 @ 12:43 AM Edit: 11-Feb-04 | 01:04 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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dont hop in too quick mate (mantra) - I was adding anotehr post to follow with a different tick

we're talkin about a principal of swing that's all, you cant craft a good groove/track around that ALONE, but the timing is those swing factors anyways then it's up to the skill of the person and their love of the music to translate that into a great track using real care & attention to detail

the point is I think people here are saying IF you check it, (and it's true - as these files added show)... just adding 41 or 21 or whatever tick swing to something doent make a great house groove - its WAY WAY more deep than that, otherwise any halfwit could do it.

stuff like gate-time of notes is part of it, some sustain a bit , some cut-off quicker or real quick.

Anyways, matra, whoever, relax man before you give yourself a heart attack

james man, the swing .... is as you have found, not everything, so i suggest d/load some tunes and import some loops edited from that audio into your sequencer

set the tempo of the song to fit the loop, and study it timingwise by loking at the peaks in the wave against the grid/timing

some sequencers let you grab a midi quantise template also from a loop, but...like all genres it's a skill you have to learn and then it's down to wether you have the talent also.

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Message 50/80 11-Feb-04 @ 01:13 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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http://www.undergroundhouse.net/ram/bobby_v.ram

that's a bit less cluttered and raw - easier to hear the basic - gorgeous groove

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Message 51/80 11-Feb-04 @ 01:53 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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housey_25_bpm.mp3

add some shaker and it changes again, but again just cos it's got a skip on 21' and 41's it would get me up

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Message 52/80 11-Feb-04 @ 02:18 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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you send me to a site with 50+ realplayer icons on the front-page after telling me to lose the evilbugger?

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Message 53/80 11-Feb-04 @ 08:39 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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mate - havent you got the ALT real player? - it's fantastic - tiny, and no registration crap - dump realplayer and get it

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Message 54/80 11-Feb-04 @ 08:41 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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there ya go - fantastic stuff! - banish realplayer forever

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Message 55/80 11-Feb-04 @ 09:41 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

psylichon

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lol, k my man... when are you going to remember that clay is macman?

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Message 56/80 11-Feb-04 @ 10:09 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Tom Jenkins

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You guys make me laugh - hahahah. You lot carry on like some tortured artists caliming "there's no rules man, its an art form". Of course there are rules. The three rules of groove are:-

1. Velocity
2. The postioning of the 2nd and 4th 16th
3. How the drum elements play off each other

I think James was talking about the importance of the 2nd rule. Also, because House music is made at 125-129bpm, there isn't a lot of room to have a "live" drum sound or any wild swing settings otherwise it just sounds plain sloppy. Having drum elements on different groove/swing settings just sounds wrong and not tight. I tend to use just 3 different swiing settings for my tunes and it works well or at least I'm shifting a few units.

Tom Jenkins

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Message 57/80 11-Feb-04 @ 10:34 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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Tom you've summed up my feelings exactly.....with house there are certain rules and swing is one of them....who wants to manually shift stuff when you can just swing?

greg

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Message 58/80 11-Feb-04 @ 11:20 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

milan

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tom jenkins... wasnt he the squarepusher? are you assuming his identity?

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Message 59/80 11-Feb-04 @ 12:30 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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thats jenkinson........shame really i have a couple of questions for squarepusher...

greg

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Message 60/80 11-Feb-04 @ 01:45 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

craig

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So next time I have a live drummer sit in I'll just tell him to make sure he's 41 ticks off

Those templates are an excellent starting point and often if you turn it on while building a groove, you'll build a groove that works well with the given swing. But they're not hard and fast rules. Anyone who argues that they are should join a drum circle.

-Craig

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Message 61/80 11-Feb-04 @ 01:56 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Tom Jenkins

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Craig - since when has house music been about live drummers or drumkits? The first message in this thread included the magic words"underground house".

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Message 62/80 11-Feb-04 @ 02:25 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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yeah am not sure anyone mentioned anything was a strict rule for house..starting points yes....

greg

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Message 63/80 11-Feb-04 @ 02:41 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dan-s

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> At slower tempos, like house, some breakbeat, etc...

house? slower tempos? ehhh... what planet are you from? Planet drillcore?

> who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) -
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most

Yeah I know that feeling too well... ;)

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Message 64/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:17 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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> who listens to house anyways who's under 30? (could be an arguement also) -
> I cant think of anyone who listens to house who isnt basicaly a cheezy quaver
> in the eyes of most

Ha ha ha, things must be quite different down the deep south cos its the tranceheads and hardhouse fans who are seen as the cheezy quavers.........

drum n bass still rools (for some reason- is well boring of late) but house and techno are king......

greg

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Message 65/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:40 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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t. jenkins: Having drum elements on different groove/swing settings just sounds wrong and not tight. I tend to use just 3 different swiing settings for my tunes

tom....i'm curious what you mean when you say it's wrong to use different swing-settings and then you say you use 3 different settings?

i know 126 was an old standard for certain house-tempos but i've just recently read djs today don't like tracks any slower than 128 bpm. is this true?

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Message 66/80 11-Feb-04 @ 03:53 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

craig

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Obviously I know house isn't about real drummers...All I'm saying is that things groove without swing-C. It's not a hard and fast rule like some present it as.

-Craig

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Message 67/80 11-Feb-04 @ 04:21 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Tom Jenkins

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What I meant was that its no good pushing the snares forward by a few ticks, then humanizing the shakers differently, then moving the hats to swing B, then changing a few kicks by a couple of ticks, then putting the congas on swing D, then moving the triangle back by 6 ticks, then moving the 2nd hit of the loop forward by 4 ticks, then putting the claps on swing B. I don't do all that as all I do is use a maximum of 3 different swing settings depending on the drum, bass or music part. Hope that makes sense.

Actually the best house DJ's all play at 129bpm so its better to make the tunes slightly slower. If you can get a house track grooving/pushing/bouncing at 128bpm, then your onto a winner I reckon. Everything sounds like its pushing/grooving if you make it at 130-132bpm. I hate anything over 132bpm.

I've got an opinion and I'm going to use it.

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Message 68/80 11-Feb-04 @ 07:58 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

Manthra

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Ok, totally unrelated but, when I said "be nice" I was talking about MCC.
That fella is just like my nextdoor "pain in the ass" neighbour. Old, grumphy and hates kids

"got wogic", blahbalhbalh not interested...

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Message 69/80 12-Feb-04 @ 12:20 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

cydonia cell

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Ok, I don't use logic... so, maybe I'm ignorant... but.. is this "swing c" "swing d" sh+t preset quantizations in logic? If so, I'll back my statement above up all day long! I think it's friggin' absurd that people are using cookie cutter preset ANYTHING's as a rule for an entire genre of music.

Yeah dude, drill-core's in the 130's (sigh)

I'll say it simpler... you get swing and groove by swingin' and groovin'! NOT, by selecting a quantization form a drop down menu.

Sure there are some things to understand that will help someone learn to swing and groove... like the second and fourth sixteenth position... AND Velocity, and these things are well covered above...

I was responding to all the posters who are ragging on about magic quantization techniques. There's no such thing...

and...

at 128 129 you can poly rythm all friggin' day... just don't screw that kick around if you want house!!! (House was created by mixing different DISCO records together, real drummers playing different rythms, pushing and pulling the beat... then folks started dropping drum loop samples behind 909 kicks, again real drummers playing slightly off the mark, and looped to a clocked beat... now, deep house get's it's rythms from those examples, it's still the same stuff... THAT'S why you guys have formulas and recipes that require digital quantizing and step recording, because you are EMULATING drummers!)

so there...

~

e

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Message 70/80 12-Feb-04 @ 02:39 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

MCC>

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i'm always interested in hearing what the rules and methods and procedures are for any style of music...lifestyle...crossing the road etc... when it's convenient to do so.
that doesn't mean i'll abide by those conventions.
and of course i'll never attempt to be a house producer. there are so many
(too many??) good producers that already know what they're doing....that suits me fine. i know where to go when i want to hear it....almost.
but i also know that isn't what really strikes me as adventurous on a day-in day-out basis. there's so much more...
like messed-up non-formulaic stuff be it punk or celtic or african and everyone has their own way of doing things....and in some ways seems much more underground to me. machine music can just be so......routine....especially when it occurs within the
constraints of "a scene".
i also think that excitement can be had by being simply naive to those rules and/or even intentionally breaking the law...because....hey...police....snore.
music police?...bigger snore.

as for being nice......i'm the nicest guy on this whole damned site so screw off manthra ya nerd.

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Message 71/80 12-Feb-04 @ 08:23 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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great thread! - yes agreed - of course there are rules, to suggest otherwise is stupid

and that goes for ALL music - if you play doom metal then that too has rules... if you make trance it has rules. or house or garage, hip hop, dancehall etc

BUt it's what one does within those rules which is interesting

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Message 72/80 12-Feb-04 @ 09:26 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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yup...i don't belive 16c is a RULE of house moreover something that many logic users use to good effect..therefore toi emaulte the sound of c-swing or 16b or whatever it is probably best to start off using similar quantize settings as them befor eyou get your hands dirty writing the beat....and having a tool which can snap your 2nd and 4th 16th notes to a new setting alievating the need to move them manually....plus there are some styles of house which are pretty straight, some are pretty sparse and not all of them rely on a real drummer element.....

greg

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Message 73/80 12-Feb-04 @ 04:18 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

mcc>

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what i also believe is exciting is the possibility of incorporating said swing values into musics which aren't house...creating further hybrids perhaps not yet explored this week.

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Message 74/80 12-Feb-04 @ 04:49 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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yeah, there's some drum&bass around with triplets in it.... odd, but somehow refreshing although die-hards hate it

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Message 75/80 12-Feb-04 @ 04:52 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

milan

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oh yeah... the dreaded CLOWNSTEP! lol...

(who thought of that silly name anyway??)

i've heard it in breaks too lately... SUAD did one track like that (remember them?!)

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Message 76/80 12-Feb-04 @ 08:23 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

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HEH - but SOME PEOPLE really THINK IT'S GOT SOMETHING

bloody caps

___________________________________

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Message 77/80 12-Feb-04 @ 08:53 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

milan

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i didnt know you were caps-sensitive, k

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Message 78/80 13-Feb-04 @ 10:04 AM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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yeah im sure i heard some dnb stuff that was in 3/4 like that andy c tune or was it triplets...(tries to remember by tapping hands on table)...

greg

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Message 79/80 13-Feb-04 @ 12:21 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

milan

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no, that was it... the bodyrock by andy c. now you get tons of track which have two bars of that followed by two bars of straight beat followed by few bars of amen... sounds like someone auditioning a bloody sample cd!

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Message 80/80 13-Feb-04 @ 12:53 PM - RE: swing and groove secrets

dubmunkey

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lol sitar! yeah it had a cool gary-glitter groove and could have predicted the plethora of copiers...to me if youre gonna write a hard-edged dnb tune in 3/4 you will end up sounding like andy c....

cool track btw...that bass is sickness...

greg

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