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Forums - Synths & synthesis
Subject: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
Viewing all 10 messages - View by pages of 10: 1
Original Message 1/10 03-Oct-00 @ 10:36 PM - Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
okay, i've had my A for a week now, know my way around fairly well, but i NEED someone to answer this question (the manual's sorta ambiguous):
what are you doing when you change the "filter balance". like what are you actually _doing_, what is going where? virtually of course...
i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but i'm puzzled because the more i experiment to find an answer, the more confused i become... basically my problem is this:
for the serial filter configs (ie the first two routings), when the filter balance is all the way right (i.e all filter 2), adjustments to filter 1 (i.e cutoff or saturation) make NO difference.
but if the filters are routed in SERIES, how the fuck can what's coming out of #1 not affect what's coming into #2?!
i just really want to understand what's going on in the software... i.e i've noticed that for hi-rez patches having the filter balance dead center results in way more resonance, it sounds a lot steeper, etc. (i.e twisting the balance one way or the other a)reduced the resonance and b)makes it sound like the filter's slope is decreasing, becoming less sharp)...
AARRGGGHHH
okay, sorry for being so stupid, but this filter balance thing's really bothering me... what's the difference between serial and parallel if the output of one filter's not being run into the next filter?
also, while you guy's are answering retarded questions, could you maybe explain saturation... i.e it's determined by osc level, which would suggest the filter's input is being overdriven ("virtually" of course) BUT on the routing diagrams, the saturation stage is for some reason AFTER the 1st filter... ??? AND is there any way to adjust the amount of saturation if you're only feeding it noise+ringmod (i.e osc volume at 0 -- the different distortion curves sound different, but you can't adjust the amount of distortion without bringing oscs into it?)
thanks
what are you doing when you change the "filter balance". like what are you actually _doing_, what is going where? virtually of course...
i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but i'm puzzled because the more i experiment to find an answer, the more confused i become... basically my problem is this:
for the serial filter configs (ie the first two routings), when the filter balance is all the way right (i.e all filter 2), adjustments to filter 1 (i.e cutoff or saturation) make NO difference.
but if the filters are routed in SERIES, how the fuck can what's coming out of #1 not affect what's coming into #2?!
i just really want to understand what's going on in the software... i.e i've noticed that for hi-rez patches having the filter balance dead center results in way more resonance, it sounds a lot steeper, etc. (i.e twisting the balance one way or the other a)reduced the resonance and b)makes it sound like the filter's slope is decreasing, becoming less sharp)...
AARRGGGHHH
okay, sorry for being so stupid, but this filter balance thing's really bothering me... what's the difference between serial and parallel if the output of one filter's not being run into the next filter?
also, while you guy's are answering retarded questions, could you maybe explain saturation... i.e it's determined by osc level, which would suggest the filter's input is being overdriven ("virtually" of course) BUT on the routing diagrams, the saturation stage is for some reason AFTER the 1st filter... ??? AND is there any way to adjust the amount of saturation if you're only feeding it noise+ringmod (i.e osc volume at 0 -- the different distortion curves sound different, but you can't adjust the amount of distortion without bringing oscs into it?)
thanks
Message 2/10 03-Oct-00 @ 10:37 PM - Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
okay, i've had my A for a week now, know my way around fairly well, but i NEED someone to answer this question (the manual's sorta ambiguous):
what are you doing when you change the "filter balance". like what are you actually _doing_, what is going where? virtually of course...
i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but i'm puzzled because the more i experiment to find an answer, the more confused i become... basically my problem is this:
for the serial filter configs (ie the first two routings), when the filter balance is all the way right (i.e all filter 2), adjustments to filter 1 (i.e cutoff or saturation) make NO difference.
but if the filters are routed in SERIES, how the fuck can what's coming out of #1 not affect what's coming into #2?!
i just really want to understand what's going on in the software... i.e i've noticed that for hi-rez patches having the filter balance dead center results in way more resonance, it sounds a lot steeper, etc. (i.e twisting the balance one way or the other a)reduced the resonance and b)makes it sound like the filter's slope is decreasing, becoming less sharp)...
AARRGGGHHH
okay, sorry for being so stupid, but this filter balance thing's really bothering me... what's the difference between serial and parallel if the output of one filter's not being run into the next filter?
also, while you guy's are answering retarded questions, could you maybe explain saturation... i.e it's determined by osc level, which would suggest the filter's input is being overdriven ("virtually" of course) BUT on the routing diagrams, the saturation stage is for some reason AFTER the 1st filter... ??? AND is there any way to adjust the amount of saturation if you're only feeding it noise+ringmod (i.e osc volume at 0 -- the different distortion curves sound different, but you can't adjust the amount of distortion without bringing oscs into it?)
thanks
what are you doing when you change the "filter balance". like what are you actually _doing_, what is going where? virtually of course...
i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but i'm puzzled because the more i experiment to find an answer, the more confused i become... basically my problem is this:
for the serial filter configs (ie the first two routings), when the filter balance is all the way right (i.e all filter 2), adjustments to filter 1 (i.e cutoff or saturation) make NO difference.
but if the filters are routed in SERIES, how the fuck can what's coming out of #1 not affect what's coming into #2?!
i just really want to understand what's going on in the software... i.e i've noticed that for hi-rez patches having the filter balance dead center results in way more resonance, it sounds a lot steeper, etc. (i.e twisting the balance one way or the other a)reduced the resonance and b)makes it sound like the filter's slope is decreasing, becoming less sharp)...
AARRGGGHHH
okay, sorry for being so stupid, but this filter balance thing's really bothering me... what's the difference between serial and parallel if the output of one filter's not being run into the next filter?
also, while you guy's are answering retarded questions, could you maybe explain saturation... i.e it's determined by osc level, which would suggest the filter's input is being overdriven ("virtually" of course) BUT on the routing diagrams, the saturation stage is for some reason AFTER the 1st filter... ??? AND is there any way to adjust the amount of saturation if you're only feeding it noise+ringmod (i.e osc volume at 0 -- the different distortion curves sound different, but you can't adjust the amount of distortion without bringing oscs into it?)
thanks
Message 3/10 03-Oct-00 @ 10:44 PM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
sorry about the double post... to clarify the main question, how is the signal routed, post-osc section?
does filter balance adjust the amount of signal from the osc section each filter's fed? or the relative volume of each filter? it's just that any way i think about it, it doesn't make sense for the output of filter 1 to NOT affect the input of filter 2 when they're run in series...
really i'm trying to make a patch where a really overdriven sound's run through a filter... my problem's that when the filter balance knob's in the center, there's too much unfiltered signal (i.e too much of the sound i get when i twist the balance to full left, all filter 1) with all it's airy/weedy high-end... it seems like (according to the diagrams and my ears) distortion's applied to the output of filter 1. but i don't want distorted filtered stuff, i want filtered distorted stuff!!!
i'm really lost here, sorry...
rgh.
thanks again,
raigan
does filter balance adjust the amount of signal from the osc section each filter's fed? or the relative volume of each filter? it's just that any way i think about it, it doesn't make sense for the output of filter 1 to NOT affect the input of filter 2 when they're run in series...
really i'm trying to make a patch where a really overdriven sound's run through a filter... my problem's that when the filter balance knob's in the center, there's too much unfiltered signal (i.e too much of the sound i get when i twist the balance to full left, all filter 1) with all it's airy/weedy high-end... it seems like (according to the diagrams and my ears) distortion's applied to the output of filter 1. but i don't want distorted filtered stuff, i want filtered distorted stuff!!!
i'm really lost here, sorry...
rgh.
thanks again,
raigan
Message 4/10 04-Oct-00 @ 03:06 AM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
The signal diagram is here
Message 5/10 04-Oct-00 @ 08:11 PM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
okay, sorry for not explaining properly...
i've got the manual, and (for instance) in the first routing (ser4 or whatever) we have the signal from the oscs etc. going into the first filter, from there to the saturation stage, and from there to the second filter.
NOW
if you turn the filter balance to full right (i.e all filter 2) in this routing, a)any changes to filter 1 are inaudible (i.e turning the cutoff of filter 1 (set to lp) all the way down SHOULD result in a loss of signal -- since filter two gets only what gets through filter 1 -- BUT it doesn't! it has NO effect... ?! b)there is no distortion
what i mean is, obviously changing the filter balance is NOT just changing the relative levels if each filter's output, it's routing more or less of the signal coming from the osc. stage to each filter... that's the only thing that makes sense to me... but then why call it "serial"? isn't it sort of quasi-parallel if the preceeding filter doesn't omdify the signal passed to the next filter? and is there any way to filter the distorted signal (i.e the post-saturation stage signal) without hearing any of the non-filtered, distorted part? (i.e i want to apply saturation THEN filter -- setting the filter balance to center mixes non-filtered (i.e pre-filter 2 signal) in with filtered (i.e post-filter 2 signal)... BUT setting the filter balance to full right (all filter 2) ELIMINATES the saturation)
this is what sort of makes me think that the filter balance changes NOT the relative amplitudes of the filter outputs, but the relative amps of their inputs....
could someone PLEASE _explain_?! please?
i've got the manual, and (for instance) in the first routing (ser4 or whatever) we have the signal from the oscs etc. going into the first filter, from there to the saturation stage, and from there to the second filter.
NOW
if you turn the filter balance to full right (i.e all filter 2) in this routing, a)any changes to filter 1 are inaudible (i.e turning the cutoff of filter 1 (set to lp) all the way down SHOULD result in a loss of signal -- since filter two gets only what gets through filter 1 -- BUT it doesn't! it has NO effect... ?! b)there is no distortion
what i mean is, obviously changing the filter balance is NOT just changing the relative levels if each filter's output, it's routing more or less of the signal coming from the osc. stage to each filter... that's the only thing that makes sense to me... but then why call it "serial"? isn't it sort of quasi-parallel if the preceeding filter doesn't omdify the signal passed to the next filter? and is there any way to filter the distorted signal (i.e the post-saturation stage signal) without hearing any of the non-filtered, distorted part? (i.e i want to apply saturation THEN filter -- setting the filter balance to center mixes non-filtered (i.e pre-filter 2 signal) in with filtered (i.e post-filter 2 signal)... BUT setting the filter balance to full right (all filter 2) ELIMINATES the saturation)
this is what sort of makes me think that the filter balance changes NOT the relative amplitudes of the filter outputs, but the relative amps of their inputs....
could someone PLEASE _explain_?! please?
Message 6/10 04-Oct-00 @ 09:05 PM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
I think you are correct in your thinking. In a truly serial circuit, you couldn't posasibly have a filter balance control.
Although I never crank the filter balance to filter 2, I do crank it all the way to filter 1 for squelchy acid stuff. When you think about it, why should this increase the perceived amount of saturation?
As a workaround, you could route the output of one voice (your distorted sound) into the filters of another voice, thus achieving the result you're looking for.
-Craig
Although I never crank the filter balance to filter 2, I do crank it all the way to filter 1 for squelchy acid stuff. When you think about it, why should this increase the perceived amount of saturation?
As a workaround, you could route the output of one voice (your distorted sound) into the filters of another voice, thus achieving the result you're looking for.
-Craig
Message 7/10 04-Oct-00 @ 09:40 PM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
yeah, that's what i figured i'd have to do, i just begrudge the extra voice...
i'm guessing it increases the perceived amount of saturation cause filter two is "clean", i.e saturation appears to be simply modification of filter 1's output, having no effect on filter 2...
basically what's REALLY got me confused is that the perceived steepness of the filters (in ser4) increases as you near the middle position with filter balance...
now, how the fuck does THAT work? twisting the balance to one side or the other results in a CLEAR loss of slope (i guess it's going from 4pole to 2pole) BUT that's not what would happen if (as i previously assumed) more or less signal was being routed to each filter, cause that would just add the sound of two 2poles together... NOT the same as 4pole, right?
anyway, if anyone knows how filter balance actually works, please let me know... cause my little experiments are ending with contradictory conclusions -- increased slope therefore one filter's being routed through the other -- but having the balance at full filter 2 removes the 1st filter ---
AAARRRGGHH!!!!! sorry, i just NEED to understand, i sort of like knowing what's going on...
99devils, any ideas?!
i'm guessing it increases the perceived amount of saturation cause filter two is "clean", i.e saturation appears to be simply modification of filter 1's output, having no effect on filter 2...
basically what's REALLY got me confused is that the perceived steepness of the filters (in ser4) increases as you near the middle position with filter balance...
now, how the fuck does THAT work? twisting the balance to one side or the other results in a CLEAR loss of slope (i guess it's going from 4pole to 2pole) BUT that's not what would happen if (as i previously assumed) more or less signal was being routed to each filter, cause that would just add the sound of two 2poles together... NOT the same as 4pole, right?
anyway, if anyone knows how filter balance actually works, please let me know... cause my little experiments are ending with contradictory conclusions -- increased slope therefore one filter's being routed through the other -- but having the balance at full filter 2 removes the 1st filter ---
AAARRRGGHH!!!!! sorry, i just NEED to understand, i sort of like knowing what's going on...
99devils, any ideas?!
Message 8/10 05-Oct-00 @ 12:13 AM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
Well, I guess that's why they deleted this diagram from the lastest manual. Plus Access is smart enough in never really say that the Virus can do 18dB filter.
I have some theory in mind about what the Virus filter architecture is actually like, but I'd rather not say it. All I can say is I don't think it's really in series either.
How about we ask this question on the Virus list and see the response from the Virus designers themselves?
I have some theory in mind about what the Virus filter architecture is actually like, but I'd rather not say it. All I can say is I don't think it's really in series either.
How about we ask this question on the Virus list and see the response from the Virus designers themselves?
Message 9/10 05-Oct-00 @ 03:17 PM - RE: Virus Dual Filters -- Show Me The Truth!
Good idea. Great idea, actually.
-Craig
-Craig
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