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Forums - Synths & synthesis
Subject: 16 Bit or 24?
Original Message 1/20 17-Aug-00 @ 10:14 AM - 16 Bits or 24, who needs it?
Salvation! Hey, since your all uop in music, letīs talk about
the 24 Bit thing. If using HArdware wich only supports Bitrates lower than 24Bits is it usefull to use 24 Bit (Software)Recording, even if you have to force it back down to 16 on CD? (You can use IDR and such against Quality loss, but what does it really bring?) And 96 Khz seems pretty much a waste, because you can only hear to about 20 Khz. O.K 96 Khz divided by 2= 48Khz, i meen who needs it? The Nova is internally operated with 24 bits, right?
Just opening a discussion that migt be interesting
CE YA, Seff
the 24 Bit thing. If using HArdware wich only supports Bitrates lower than 24Bits is it usefull to use 24 Bit (Software)Recording, even if you have to force it back down to 16 on CD? (You can use IDR and such against Quality loss, but what does it really bring?) And 96 Khz seems pretty much a waste, because you can only hear to about 20 Khz. O.K 96 Khz divided by 2= 48Khz, i meen who needs it? The Nova is internally operated with 24 bits, right?
Just opening a discussion that migt be interesting
CE YA, Seff
Message 2/20 17-Aug-00 @ 11:26 AM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
seff-
Here's a couple things you may not know-
1.) a/d convertors that allow higher bit resolution (i.e. 24bit) also have better signal to noise ratio specs. this trickles down in 16 bit operation mode, allowing the 16 bit s/n spec in a 24 bit convertor to be better than that in just a 16 bit convertor.
2. 96khz is in my opinion still not enough, but a good resting point for now
(course i am a recording engineer so i'm anal). the reason is that although we stop hearing fundamental and harmonic frequencies at 20khz there is still some psychoacoustic effects- listeners may hear more "air" or generally more detail.
but more precisely than such subjectivity is that the circuits of a 48khz convertor contain a sharp anti-aliasing filter at this frequency.
such a strict filter is unnatural and therefore recordings are not entirely realistic- although this is out of audible range it still affects our psychoacoustical preception.
now, i can't tell the difference in a 44.1 vs. 48khz recording, but i can in a 48 vs 96khz. the reason is that this is an entire octave that opened up and not just a limited band.
but the biggest difference is the bit resolution, cause this is the detail- i think a good stopping standard 50 years from now would be 48 bit/192 khz. but current storage medias do not make this ergonomical. the cool thing is with technoligies like direct stream digital that isn't confined to word lengths and can therefore accomadate to any de facto standard.
3. dvd audio is on the way, so 24 bit 96khz will become the new consumer standard
4. record projects at 24bit now, even though you will release them at 16bit cd. in a few years, you can remix the project to a 24bit standard.
r.
Here's a couple things you may not know-
1.) a/d convertors that allow higher bit resolution (i.e. 24bit) also have better signal to noise ratio specs. this trickles down in 16 bit operation mode, allowing the 16 bit s/n spec in a 24 bit convertor to be better than that in just a 16 bit convertor.
2. 96khz is in my opinion still not enough, but a good resting point for now
(course i am a recording engineer so i'm anal). the reason is that although we stop hearing fundamental and harmonic frequencies at 20khz there is still some psychoacoustic effects- listeners may hear more "air" or generally more detail.
but more precisely than such subjectivity is that the circuits of a 48khz convertor contain a sharp anti-aliasing filter at this frequency.
such a strict filter is unnatural and therefore recordings are not entirely realistic- although this is out of audible range it still affects our psychoacoustical preception.
now, i can't tell the difference in a 44.1 vs. 48khz recording, but i can in a 48 vs 96khz. the reason is that this is an entire octave that opened up and not just a limited band.
but the biggest difference is the bit resolution, cause this is the detail- i think a good stopping standard 50 years from now would be 48 bit/192 khz. but current storage medias do not make this ergonomical. the cool thing is with technoligies like direct stream digital that isn't confined to word lengths and can therefore accomadate to any de facto standard.
3. dvd audio is on the way, so 24 bit 96khz will become the new consumer standard
4. record projects at 24bit now, even though you will release them at 16bit cd. in a few years, you can remix the project to a 24bit standard.
r.
Message 3/20 17-Aug-00 @ 10:04 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
make music dudes, not stir technological pea soup.
Message 4/20 18-Aug-00 @ 03:56 AM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
96K is really a bit over the top...
It's an excuse to force muso's to by faster computers and new huge HD's.
It's an excuse to force muso's to by faster computers and new huge HD's.
Message 5/20 18-Aug-00 @ 10:17 AM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
gt-
as i said- i am recording engineer at a post house, as well as an on-staff composer. if the "pea soup" that creates the technology you use doesn't interest you, why read the thread?
geeez-
its all opinion. but musicians will always have to conform to distribution technology, not the other way around.
r.
as i said- i am recording engineer at a post house, as well as an on-staff composer. if the "pea soup" that creates the technology you use doesn't interest you, why read the thread?
geeez-
its all opinion. but musicians will always have to conform to distribution technology, not the other way around.
r.
Message 6/20 18-Aug-00 @ 12:46 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
errr, you never said that AND, who cares what you do?....ORGINATOR=sefpow@yahoo.de not yourself, asked about bit rate, and NOt what you do.
wtf "stopping standard 50 years from now would be 48 bit/192 khz" - do i really have wait that long to make a great sounding track????
I'll send you to common sence school, lesson 101: For now, geez is right. Your avg museo is on a pc/mac using converters or adat of 20 bit or less, and with synths that have even less resolution out the box then that. 24bit, 32bit, who cares (for now
DITHER DITHER DITHER, thats all you will do in the bedroom/semi-pro studio when you dump to a cd.
you do post, that shite is way off topic and out of scope. You're not dither there...full on bit reso' for film and stuff.
this dude soundz like "ahem ahem, 'Im a on-staff composer" etc, aaaannnnnnddd....??? dime a dozen mate.
opinion is correct, but you should have stated that fact from your first post Mr Bach. Listening to music is subjective, and with most of us not objective with relavance to what sounds better. Sorry, it might be rela' to a symphony, requiring extreme detail, but not bang'n dance tunes.
>>>but musicians will always have to conform to distribution technology, not the other way around. - ohhh Poppycock! People will be spin'n cd for years to come. hell, most middle agers favor tapes, cus thats what they grew up on and for price considerations. Do you really think they'll run out and buy a $xxx dvd@96 player?
Its like Genelec and Roland's push for a 24bit digital speaker world, ya, go right ahead pea soup people and blow money on that gear, I'd rather give my money/trax to a pro-mastering house with real monitors (i have event 2020bas)
Don't take my ribs to heart, your post has good 411 (although a beaten horse), but is way out of scope for DT.
wtf "stopping standard 50 years from now would be 48 bit/192 khz" - do i really have wait that long to make a great sounding track????
I'll send you to common sence school, lesson 101: For now, geez is right. Your avg museo is on a pc/mac using converters or adat of 20 bit or less, and with synths that have even less resolution out the box then that. 24bit, 32bit, who cares (for now
DITHER DITHER DITHER, thats all you will do in the bedroom/semi-pro studio when you dump to a cd.you do post, that shite is way off topic and out of scope. You're not dither there...full on bit reso' for film and stuff.
this dude soundz like "ahem ahem, 'Im a on-staff composer" etc, aaaannnnnnddd....??? dime a dozen mate.
opinion is correct, but you should have stated that fact from your first post Mr Bach. Listening to music is subjective, and with most of us not objective with relavance to what sounds better. Sorry, it might be rela' to a symphony, requiring extreme detail, but not bang'n dance tunes.
>>>but musicians will always have to conform to distribution technology, not the other way around. - ohhh Poppycock! People will be spin'n cd for years to come. hell, most middle agers favor tapes, cus thats what they grew up on and for price considerations. Do you really think they'll run out and buy a $xxx dvd@96 player?
Its like Genelec and Roland's push for a 24bit digital speaker world, ya, go right ahead pea soup people and blow money on that gear, I'd rather give my money/trax to a pro-mastering house with real monitors (i have event 2020bas)
Don't take my ribs to heart, your post has good 411 (although a beaten horse), but is way out of scope for DT.
Message 7/20 18-Aug-00 @ 12:50 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
Sorry, too harsh, i just hate to see people KIlLing themselves to have the latest studio gear instead of Using the gear they have.
GT
GT
Message 8/20 18-Aug-00 @ 02:55 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
i don't understand why people get so personal on this site. on another thread RT responded with similar venom when i merely asked if anyone has received the supernova 2 24 voice keyboard yet. i guess its easy to be a dick when you're on the other side of the atlantic-
- i encouraged no one to invest in 24 bit gear, i only offered my opinion of why 24 bit gear is theoretically better.
especially 24 bit effects!
but i dither my signals down to 16
daily... (there is no 24 bit master media yet)
-Mr Bach? symphony? what the hell are you talking about? i didn't say i was a string conductor.
the reason i said i was a composer at a post house wasn't to pat myself on the back, but my response when you said "make music dudes". sorry if you read this as being pompous.
Prehaps you have somehow cleansed yourself by your attack, but i feel it was unnecessary...
-anyway, if i was going to a studio to record now, i would encourage anyone to check out 24 bit machines if they want to record digital (even when mixing for cd).
-i'll admit i was talking out of my ass concerning 48 bit /192 khz (but 48 bit 96 khz i feel will be a reality in 20 years).
- and who cares? well sefpow might since he started the thread...
r.
- i encouraged no one to invest in 24 bit gear, i only offered my opinion of why 24 bit gear is theoretically better.
especially 24 bit effects!
but i dither my signals down to 16
daily... (there is no 24 bit master media yet)
-Mr Bach? symphony? what the hell are you talking about? i didn't say i was a string conductor.
the reason i said i was a composer at a post house wasn't to pat myself on the back, but my response when you said "make music dudes". sorry if you read this as being pompous.
Prehaps you have somehow cleansed yourself by your attack, but i feel it was unnecessary...
-anyway, if i was going to a studio to record now, i would encourage anyone to check out 24 bit machines if they want to record digital (even when mixing for cd).
-i'll admit i was talking out of my ass concerning 48 bit /192 khz (but 48 bit 96 khz i feel will be a reality in 20 years).
- and who cares? well sefpow might since he started the thread...
r.
Message 9/20 18-Aug-00 @ 03:05 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
well the new nova's dont have dig' out do they?.. if you're routing to the pc to record, then you'd just get better dynamic range and a lower noise floor level - thats the advantage, so yes if you are routing in via analog sure, cos if you go thru a desk you'll pick up noise, and even direct from the novation into a pc rack input still will have a noise floor - it does actually work cos on a 24bit dac, when you lower the fader to like halfway, it is already almost silent cos there is so much further to go cos the dynamic range is 'taller' so to speak...
Message 10/20 18-Aug-00 @ 05:20 PM - RE: 16 Bit or 24?
i know the supernova 2 has a spdif (and adat) option... its probably internally dithered down to 16bit but i'm not sure of the sampling rate. yeah the dynamic range (or bit resolution) is exactly what i'm talking about. the more bits the better dynamic range- this is really important for any acoustic stuff you want to add to your tracks (vox, drum fills)- r.
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