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Forums - Synths & synthesis
Subject: Multitimbrel use
Original Message Date: 29-May-00 @ 05:47 PM - Multitimbrel use
As per the manual for my new Nova pg.18 'Tips on multitimbrel setups'
I selected Performance mode/performance A 126 multi ch 1-6
Then I pressed part 1 in part edit which gives me Bank A program A000 sintilltor. So far, so good.
Then when I select a new program using bank and prog. buttons to select say, A002 softena bass, the Nova changes from Performance mode to Program mode and I can not access the part edit parameters for instance midi, I/O, tune, velocity, etc.
I have read part edit only works in Performance mode but, if you want to assign programs to different midi channels for multitimbrel use how-to?
Again, when in Performance mode,(A126 Multi Ch 1-6) selecting Part Edit 1 (sintilator M-wh A000) and then changing to program A002 softena bass puts the Nova into program mode and I can't assign differant programs for multitimbrel use.
I am reading further into the manual P.24 + editing and writing programs and performances. P. 80 part edit section.
So far, no insight.
P.18 reads straight forward enough but, its not working when I try to select a new voice. What am I missing? How to get the Nova to work for Multitimbrel use?
Thanks for any help.
Hermetic
I selected Performance mode/performance A 126 multi ch 1-6
Then I pressed part 1 in part edit which gives me Bank A program A000 sintilltor. So far, so good.
Then when I select a new program using bank and prog. buttons to select say, A002 softena bass, the Nova changes from Performance mode to Program mode and I can not access the part edit parameters for instance midi, I/O, tune, velocity, etc.
I have read part edit only works in Performance mode but, if you want to assign programs to different midi channels for multitimbrel use how-to?
Again, when in Performance mode,(A126 Multi Ch 1-6) selecting Part Edit 1 (sintilator M-wh A000) and then changing to program A002 softena bass puts the Nova into program mode and I can't assign differant programs for multitimbrel use.
I am reading further into the manual P.24 + editing and writing programs and performances. P. 80 part edit section.
So far, no insight.
P.18 reads straight forward enough but, its not working when I try to select a new voice. What am I missing? How to get the Nova to work for Multitimbrel use?
Thanks for any help.
Hermetic
Message 11/19 30-May-00 @ 12:19 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Complement:
if for any reason you need to set the global channel to a channel number that is also used in a part you have the possibility to filter prog change events for that particular channel in most sequencers.
In Cubase you find the filtering option in Options / Input transformer
if for any reason you need to set the global channel to a channel number that is also used in a part you have the possibility to filter prog change events for that particular channel in most sequencers.
In Cubase you find the filtering option in Options / Input transformer
Message 12/19 30-May-00 @ 10:34 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Thank you all for the help!
This gives me a little more insight into how program and performances are set up and interact with the sequencer.
I must confess that I don't know a great deal more about Midi programming or, Cubase, than I know about the Nova but, I'm learning.
Program change via the sequencer is at the top of the required studies at the moment.
Basic stuff, I'm sure however, I have been reading back and forth between, a book 'The Midi files' and the Cubase doc. about how to set up nice, neat Midi song headers with resets, program changes, etc. and delving into the mysteries of the List editor, trying to fathom!
The best so far, is to transmit sys ex for a single performance or program which seems to work ( as long as its with my modules!)
Now, I see that the Performances do not always use all 6 parts leaving a part or, two maybe for another voice or two. a second Sys ex trans for just those parts/programs?
What if I want to change programs or, performance for a section of the arrangement? sending and receiving sysex might be a little tricky mid song?
Enter program change in the List editor or, record somehow the change into sequencer? Hmmm...
As you can see, I'm still trying to put all this together. Midi tutorials welcome!
Anyway, I was able to set up 6 parts in Cubase on 6 channels. So far, so good.
Now, if I can get program change down, its on to controllers and nrpns!
Thanks!
Hermetic
This gives me a little more insight into how program and performances are set up and interact with the sequencer.
I must confess that I don't know a great deal more about Midi programming or, Cubase, than I know about the Nova but, I'm learning.
Program change via the sequencer is at the top of the required studies at the moment.
Basic stuff, I'm sure however, I have been reading back and forth between, a book 'The Midi files' and the Cubase doc. about how to set up nice, neat Midi song headers with resets, program changes, etc. and delving into the mysteries of the List editor, trying to fathom!
The best so far, is to transmit sys ex for a single performance or program which seems to work ( as long as its with my modules!)
Now, I see that the Performances do not always use all 6 parts leaving a part or, two maybe for another voice or two. a second Sys ex trans for just those parts/programs?
What if I want to change programs or, performance for a section of the arrangement? sending and receiving sysex might be a little tricky mid song?
Enter program change in the List editor or, record somehow the change into sequencer? Hmmm...
As you can see, I'm still trying to put all this together. Midi tutorials welcome!
Anyway, I was able to set up 6 parts in Cubase on 6 channels. So far, so good.
Now, if I can get program change down, its on to controllers and nrpns!
Thanks!
Hermetic
Message 13/19 31-May-00 @ 11:41 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
I have re-read the Cubase doc./manual sections concerning Program change.
There are thee main methods:
Inspector
GM/GS/XG editor
recording or entering into an editor
( I believe this would be mainly List editor and is where the the 'Midi Song headers'at the begainning of an arrangement that I've seen files with, that contain the reset, program, controller info etc., come in.)
and from 'the midi files'
'Replacement song headers'
Recording a sysex dump for a program or performance at the beginning of the file ( which the Nova does beautifully)
This it seems, is a valid way of working. Quick, easy, works. No need to enter manually in the editors. Though, it takes a little longer to send and receive sysex.
So, I guess my next question would be, if I have a performance called up by sysex and there is a program voice or, two available yet or, I have several programs in multitimbrel mode-
can I send and receive sysex for each program ( each on its own channel, of course) simultaneously? I mean can I line them all up at bar 1 so the nova would be receiving 2 or more msgs. at once or, do I need to stagger them a little 1.02,1.03 or further at 1.01,2.01,3.01,4.01, ?
What if I have program or performance change at a point further in the song? Using sysex? With a change at say, 25.01 it would have to receive the sysex just before and change right on 25.01 Seems it could be tricky.
I will have to play wth this and see. Meanwhile, any advice/help appreciated.
Thanks,
Hermetic
There are thee main methods:
Inspector
GM/GS/XG editor
recording or entering into an editor
( I believe this would be mainly List editor and is where the the 'Midi Song headers'at the begainning of an arrangement that I've seen files with, that contain the reset, program, controller info etc., come in.)
and from 'the midi files'
'Replacement song headers'
Recording a sysex dump for a program or performance at the beginning of the file ( which the Nova does beautifully)
This it seems, is a valid way of working. Quick, easy, works. No need to enter manually in the editors. Though, it takes a little longer to send and receive sysex.
So, I guess my next question would be, if I have a performance called up by sysex and there is a program voice or, two available yet or, I have several programs in multitimbrel mode-
can I send and receive sysex for each program ( each on its own channel, of course) simultaneously? I mean can I line them all up at bar 1 so the nova would be receiving 2 or more msgs. at once or, do I need to stagger them a little 1.02,1.03 or further at 1.01,2.01,3.01,4.01, ?
What if I have program or performance change at a point further in the song? Using sysex? With a change at say, 25.01 it would have to receive the sysex just before and change right on 25.01 Seems it could be tricky.
I will have to play wth this and see. Meanwhile, any advice/help appreciated.
Thanks,
Hermetic
Message 14/19 01-Jun-00 @ 05:27 AM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Kinetik
Posts: 14
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Changing Programs / Performances via sysex is always going to be much more time consuming than simply selecting a new Program / Performance from flash memory. If you're sending a sysex message in the middle of a song this might lead to timing problems with the other tracks, particularly if you're trying to send other MIDI data at the same time.
MIDI is a serial language. It's therefore technically impossible to send two MIDI messages simultaneously (using the same MIDI port). What always happens is that the second message must be sent after the first. This normally happens so quickly that its not noticable.
However, in the case of sysex messages this can become noticable if the messages are large. A typical sysex message to send a single SN Program would be around 290 bytes while MIDI messages to change a bank and Program would be only 5 bytes long. As you can see there's quite a difference. If you start sending Sysex Programs for all 8 parts in a Program then you're talking about sending around 2,300 bytes before any other MIDI data can be sent.
What might be more acceptable would be if you sent some Sysex data DIRECTLY (say a single bank) to memory at the begining of the song (while nothing else is happening), say during the first few bars or so, and then used Program change and bank select to fetch the Programs thoughout the rest of the song. That way the timing of the other tracks wouldn't suffer.
The main disadvantage to this is that it's only really possible to send whole banks of Programs / Performances directly out of memory via sysex using the SN menus (when you save a Single Program / Performance it's saved from the EDIT BUFFER, not directly out of the memory location. - It's always loaded back into the EDIT BUFFER as well - never directly into memory, so when you change Programs it's lost unless you write it first !).
When you save a whole bank, you're actually sending 128 sysex messages (128 PAIRS for NOVA Performances) in sequential order, so if you wanted to, you could remove some of them from the track afterwards (event edit) and keep only the ones that are relevant to your song.
Hope this helps !
MIDI is a serial language. It's therefore technically impossible to send two MIDI messages simultaneously (using the same MIDI port). What always happens is that the second message must be sent after the first. This normally happens so quickly that its not noticable.
However, in the case of sysex messages this can become noticable if the messages are large. A typical sysex message to send a single SN Program would be around 290 bytes while MIDI messages to change a bank and Program would be only 5 bytes long. As you can see there's quite a difference. If you start sending Sysex Programs for all 8 parts in a Program then you're talking about sending around 2,300 bytes before any other MIDI data can be sent.
What might be more acceptable would be if you sent some Sysex data DIRECTLY (say a single bank) to memory at the begining of the song (while nothing else is happening), say during the first few bars or so, and then used Program change and bank select to fetch the Programs thoughout the rest of the song. That way the timing of the other tracks wouldn't suffer.
The main disadvantage to this is that it's only really possible to send whole banks of Programs / Performances directly out of memory via sysex using the SN menus (when you save a Single Program / Performance it's saved from the EDIT BUFFER, not directly out of the memory location. - It's always loaded back into the EDIT BUFFER as well - never directly into memory, so when you change Programs it's lost unless you write it first !).
When you save a whole bank, you're actually sending 128 sysex messages (128 PAIRS for NOVA Performances) in sequential order, so if you wanted to, you could remove some of them from the track afterwards (event edit) and keep only the ones that are relevant to your song.
Hope this helps !
Message 15/19 01-Jun-00 @ 09:51 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Thanks. Very helpful indeed.
Sounds like a combination of sysex and program change/bank select would work best.
Studio Modules?
I downloaded the studio module for Cubase by Craig Woodcroft but, it is for the SN and I have the Nova. Would it work for the Nova?
I don't know a lot about it. Can you do something like transmit all the program banks/prformances via sysex? to a studio module and then call them up from there or, something like that? Something like the sound diver editor/liberian?
What exactly does the SN studio module do?
Thanks again,
Hermetic
Sounds like a combination of sysex and program change/bank select would work best.
Studio Modules?
I downloaded the studio module for Cubase by Craig Woodcroft but, it is for the SN and I have the Nova. Would it work for the Nova?
I don't know a lot about it. Can you do something like transmit all the program banks/prformances via sysex? to a studio module and then call them up from there or, something like that? Something like the sound diver editor/liberian?
What exactly does the SN studio module do?
Thanks again,
Hermetic
Message 16/19 02-Jun-00 @ 08:21 AM - RE: Multitimbrel use
hi again hermetic
to add to the other info. Yeah what the SM does is 2 fold. 1) to set it up, ie load it with all the patches. It sends out requests to the SNV and asks for all the programs and perfs. And 2) In use it displays the program/perf names and you select them from the SM by clicking on them, and this sends out a prgrm change message (it doesn't use sysex to select pers/pgrms although it can if you want.
That's basically it, but also since all the progs/perfs have been uploaded to the SM, you can save this sysex dump, and dump it all back later to recall the exact patches you were using, or you could suck all the patches out of one SNV and dump them all into another SNV (say at a studio or whatever) from cubase.
You can set it up so that you only need to do the dump once, and from then on, whenever you open cubase the patches are there and selection is possible, a redump is unnecessary, this is what I use it for. Of course if you change or create your own patches on the SNV you have to do a redump every so often to update the patch name set in cubase.
But as you know it won't work with the nova.
hope this helps
seeya
craig
to add to the other info. Yeah what the SM does is 2 fold. 1) to set it up, ie load it with all the patches. It sends out requests to the SNV and asks for all the programs and perfs. And 2) In use it displays the program/perf names and you select them from the SM by clicking on them, and this sends out a prgrm change message (it doesn't use sysex to select pers/pgrms although it can if you want.
That's basically it, but also since all the progs/perfs have been uploaded to the SM, you can save this sysex dump, and dump it all back later to recall the exact patches you were using, or you could suck all the patches out of one SNV and dump them all into another SNV (say at a studio or whatever) from cubase.
You can set it up so that you only need to do the dump once, and from then on, whenever you open cubase the patches are there and selection is possible, a redump is unnecessary, this is what I use it for. Of course if you change or create your own patches on the SNV you have to do a redump every so often to update the patch name set in cubase.
But as you know
it won't work with the nova.hope this helps
seeya
craig
Message 17/19 02-Jun-00 @ 11:33 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Craig,
Thanks again. A Sm for the Nova would certainly be useful!
As you can see, I'm still working on the basics. Don't know if I'm ready for designing a SM yet!
Anyone with a Nova and Cubase up for the task?
I may have to have a go at it though!
As you mentioned, with VST 5.0 soon, your SN SM may have to updated.
You could do it it if you had a Nova to work with? Don't suppose your near the Seattle area?
Thanks,
Hermetic
Thanks again. A Sm for the Nova would certainly be useful!
As you can see, I'm still working on the basics. Don't know if I'm ready for designing a SM yet!
Anyone with a Nova and Cubase up for the task?
I may have to have a go at it though!
As you mentioned, with VST 5.0 soon, your SN SM may have to updated.
You could do it it if you had a Nova to work with? Don't suppose your near the Seattle area?
Thanks,
Hermetic
Message 18/19 03-Jun-00 @ 03:05 PM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Seattle - brrr cold, pointy building, right up the top, rains more than anywhere else in the galaxy, everyone plays guitar (not) .
No sorry not close, sydney, australia, place of the olympics (shudder) and don't they keep shoving that info down our throats, I'm proud to say I'm leaving the country while it's on, for a holiday, and the closest I'll get to you is SF (was going to burning man, but I couldn't deal with my freaky friends while they're coming down - trapped for a week).
so anyway not near seattle
bye
craig
.No sorry not close, sydney, australia, place of the olympics (shudder) and don't they keep shoving that info down our throats, I'm proud to say I'm leaving the country while it's on, for a holiday, and the closest I'll get to you is SF (was going to burning man, but I couldn't deal with my freaky friends while they're coming down - trapped for a week
so anyway not near seattle
bye
craig
Message 19/19 04-Jun-00 @ 07:26 AM - RE: Multitimbrel use
Once I got tired of changing my global channel to 16 every time I fired her up, I wrote a default performance for multitimbral use with 16 as the channel. My other synths do the same thing btw and not just the supernova/nova. It's a function of midi communication. It's like telephones. If you dial the wrong number on a telephone, that particular telephone is not to blame.
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