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Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Original Message Date: 26-Sep-00 @ 09:41 PM - How are the Creamware synth cards?
Hi,
I am sort of interested to get a Pulsar 2. I looked at the manual and wow the recommended (as opposed to minimum) requirement is pretty high. What happens if my VDO card only has 4Mb AGP and my system has only 128 Mb RAM. Will it be a real drag in using the card to make music?
Also, I wonder how the synths' filters sound. Do they even self oscillate? Can they compete with outboard DSP synths like Nova, Virus, etc. in the aspect of oscillator quality?
I am sort of interested to get a Pulsar 2. I looked at the manual and wow the recommended (as opposed to minimum) requirement is pretty high. What happens if my VDO card only has 4Mb AGP and my system has only 128 Mb RAM. Will it be a real drag in using the card to make music?
Also, I wonder how the synths' filters sound. Do they even self oscillate? Can they compete with outboard DSP synths like Nova, Virus, etc. in the aspect of oscillator quality?
Message 31/38 09-Nov-00 @ 06:37 PM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
very artistic italic Jouni !!!
well the thing is Pulsar has been around alot longer than Oasys, so naturaly there is MORE synth 'plugins' for it you can load up... so it's not really fair to make that comparison YET... wait a year and see what 3rd party developers bring out for oasys... that'd be fairer... it's only just been released
the biggest thing FOR ME honestly about a card like oasys or pulsar is the FX... fx especially reverbs cripple vst/Logic systems the fastest (assuming you have some outboard synths you use and softsynths are not really required as your main armoury, just backup to your outboard)... for a guy like me with mucho outboard synthesis the FX are the main issue...
now, a high-ish quality reverb is like 400-500 for a starter unit today if we rise above the level of the cheap stuff like Zoom etc to the next level... oasys is now sub 1k in the uk, and in that respect just to get the reverbs & fx and leave the CPU free it seems a good buy if you are up in that earnings bracket where people spend like 500 plus on reverbs (i dont but there it is)....
for example, people will happily buy a lexicon reverb equipt card for 2 thousand !!!! which does nothing more than give you reverb!!... i think from my listening to demo's the oasys reverbs compare EASILY to a lexicon... i have only heard the reverb on the oasys demo's but i have spent lots of time in studio's using lexicons like the pcm60 & 70 etc...so ...
whereas before i would look at Oasys and say.. "well look, i dont need the synthesis of oasys really and the price is too high for me to see it as an FX & combined I/O solution based on my budget", now it is quiet a good priced option JUST to get those facilities all in one with easy vst & logic integration... the dsp synthesis etc is just a bonus in that scenario to me, dont use 'em if you dont want to, but you get them anyways....
Now as far as the polyphony issue, this was an issue to me when the card was a higher price.... at that price i expected more processing & less work-arounds... now it is cheaper this aint an issue so much... (to me that is).... at under a grand I would be quite happy to deal with the odd compromise of mixing down to files to gain extra resources, i do it anyways with vst instruments if i have to so it's no huge deal ...
so all in all, without making Creamware comparisons OR judgements about which is best, from a starter 'HUB' point of view, if a person has NO gear or mebbe just a master keyboard they own and are looking to get into pc/mac composition in a multimode format and really 'take it to the bridge', and say they just own a mac or PC and are looking for sounds etc AND A DECENT LOW LATENCY ASIO PCI I/O solution then oasys will get you all the sounds like you get in Z1, Trinity & especially Triton, so it is a complete euro-trance synth kit included, as Korg boards are very popular for that genre... and of course it will also do all your monosynth stuff like big booming D&B basslines etc if that is your bag.. i use euro-trance/trance as an example cos it is the most synth poly-intesive of all the dance styles i can think of & currently very popular....
now sure, if you have a drum mix going, and some good fx, and some bassline, yes, you might NOT be able to achieve high enuff polyphony when you choose a complexed 'trance' patch or a pad sound which is more complexed ... but you can always record a stereo backing mix with fx etc onto a stereo track to compose against whilst you create your 'complexed' synth parts... then track them to files, then turn off the stereo mix track and revert back to the multi dsp mix -
as you advance in money & tools, you can add an ADAT I/O rack to oasys and route say a sampler or any other outboard multi-synth/device into your vst etc mix.. at virtualy zero latency !!... so you also luckily have an upgrade path to integrate additional hardware outboard....
sure, sadly oasys's (oasies??) cant be linked, but the rack option add-on it's better than nothing as you can add 8 inputs to vst/oasys processing in realtime to upgrade resources.... (you have to buy the rack tho)
oh, you could use LM9 or LM4 or the EXS sampler or even Rebirth in VST or Logic for drums to save even more dsp resources, they work very well indeed those little app's with zero latency on the drum triggering and you get to use all your favourite drum samples.
by the way, this is NOT me coming down on the side of Oasys versus Pulsar.. i want to try them both.. and as i have not I cant comment yet on that aspect, if it is relevent even.... Pulsar & other Creamware stuff sounds juicy too...
well the thing is Pulsar has been around alot longer than Oasys, so naturaly there is MORE synth 'plugins' for it you can load up... so it's not really fair to make that comparison YET... wait a year and see what 3rd party developers bring out for oasys... that'd be fairer... it's only just been released
the biggest thing FOR ME honestly about a card like oasys or pulsar is the FX... fx especially reverbs cripple vst/Logic systems the fastest (assuming you have some outboard synths you use and softsynths are not really required as your main armoury, just backup to your outboard)... for a guy like me with mucho outboard synthesis the FX are the main issue...
now, a high-ish quality reverb is like 400-500 for a starter unit today if we rise above the level of the cheap stuff like Zoom etc to the next level... oasys is now sub 1k in the uk, and in that respect just to get the reverbs & fx and leave the CPU free it seems a good buy if you are up in that earnings bracket where people spend like 500 plus on reverbs (i dont but there it is)....
for example, people will happily buy a lexicon reverb equipt card for 2 thousand !!!! which does nothing more than give you reverb!!... i think from my listening to demo's the oasys reverbs compare EASILY to a lexicon... i have only heard the reverb on the oasys demo's but i have spent lots of time in studio's using lexicons like the pcm60 & 70 etc...so ...
whereas before i would look at Oasys and say.. "well look, i dont need the synthesis of oasys really and the price is too high for me to see it as an FX & combined I/O solution based on my budget", now it is quiet a good priced option JUST to get those facilities all in one with easy vst & logic integration... the dsp synthesis etc is just a bonus in that scenario to me, dont use 'em if you dont want to, but you get them anyways....
Now as far as the polyphony issue, this was an issue to me when the card was a higher price.... at that price i expected more processing & less work-arounds... now it is cheaper this aint an issue so much... (to me that is).... at under a grand I would be quite happy to deal with the odd compromise of mixing down to files to gain extra resources, i do it anyways with vst instruments if i have to so it's no huge deal ...
so all in all, without making Creamware comparisons OR judgements about which is best, from a starter 'HUB' point of view, if a person has NO gear or mebbe just a master keyboard they own and are looking to get into pc/mac composition in a multimode format and really 'take it to the bridge', and say they just own a mac or PC and are looking for sounds etc AND A DECENT LOW LATENCY ASIO PCI I/O solution then oasys will get you all the sounds like you get in Z1, Trinity & especially Triton, so it is a complete euro-trance synth kit included, as Korg boards are very popular for that genre... and of course it will also do all your monosynth stuff like big booming D&B basslines etc if that is your bag.. i use euro-trance/trance as an example cos it is the most synth poly-intesive of all the dance styles i can think of & currently very popular....
now sure, if you have a drum mix going, and some good fx, and some bassline, yes, you might NOT be able to achieve high enuff polyphony when you choose a complexed 'trance' patch or a pad sound which is more complexed ... but you can always record a stereo backing mix with fx etc onto a stereo track to compose against whilst you create your 'complexed' synth parts... then track them to files, then turn off the stereo mix track and revert back to the multi dsp mix -
as you advance in money & tools, you can add an ADAT I/O rack to oasys and route say a sampler or any other outboard multi-synth/device into your vst etc mix.. at virtualy zero latency !!... so you also luckily have an upgrade path to integrate additional hardware outboard....
sure, sadly oasys's (oasies??) cant be linked, but the rack option add-on it's better than nothing as you can add 8 inputs to vst/oasys processing in realtime to upgrade resources.... (you have to buy the rack tho)
oh, you could use LM9 or LM4 or the EXS sampler or even Rebirth in VST or Logic for drums to save even more dsp resources, they work very well indeed those little app's with zero latency on the drum triggering and you get to use all your favourite drum samples.
by the way, this is NOT me coming down on the side of Oasys versus Pulsar.. i want to try them both.. and as i have not I cant comment yet on that aspect, if it is relevent even.... Pulsar & other Creamware stuff sounds juicy too...
Message 32/38 10-Nov-00 @ 01:19 AM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Dear Dan,
Have I pinched a raw nerve or something? ha! ha! ha!
I guess what I'm trying to say that you haven't realised yet is that. In my opinion you have the weak argument.
It's all very well to use, "well the people I sell it to like it" to strengthen your point but to anyone else what does that mean? ZIP! Who are these professionals? What do you call professional?
That's a classic case of " but all my friends say my music rules Mr A&R man!"
To be quite frank if you were honest with yourself and went and asked a cross section of 'pros' about Oasys I think they would ask "why would I want to buy one of those and frig around with a synth building program when I can just buy a JV or a Triton and get on with the job".
Also, by saying 'sorry Dan' I was actually meaning "Sorry...to keep be down on your product".
The Graphics Suck! it looks as little time as possible was spent on that department, and there is nothing remotely inspiring about sticking numeric values in a text box when it comes to music.
Yes, I have had a very thorough demo of Oasys, and listened to dozens of sounds. My verdict.....(Lukewarm) It sounds to me like a not so good Z1! And I was listening to it through 1032 Genelecs!
As for synthkit, well forgive me again if I'd rather have something that I can relate to in a more inspiring and musical way to create synths.
I think by time any user had finished their first modular synth in Pulsar they would still be scratching their head with Synthkit.
Re: Modular 2 ......
I've tried yours and you obviously haven't tried mine.
The Mod 2 has FM, sample playback, wavetable, and various analog type oscillators. Over 140 modules are available for creating new synths.
it is efficient, fun to use and all the knobs and faders can be easily controlled via MIDI.
When I said "Well after Oasys has run out of....."
I mean Software I/O's, not voices.
32 channels of ASIO at 24/96, 32 channels of GSIF, Direct Sound, Wave all atthe same time and back if need be .
The Polyphony thing is silly, Oasys cost what ? twice what a Pulsar does.
Pulsar has 50% more DSP now, so add half more to every calculation you have for Pulsarsynth voices so far. And when you purchase a Pulsar SRB expansion as well for same same price as one Oasys you have 720MIPS of DSP to play with. And you can guess the rest.......
Why would I mix in Pulsar?
Do you have an external mixer in your studio? A Mackie, 01V or something? Well I don't! Because Pulsar is my mixer and I route all my synths and effects and mic channels straight into a 16 channel AD converter and into Pulsar. I therefore have extremely low noise, total recall, and all the routing possibilities I could ever need. All with zero latency!
How do I do that with Digital Performer?
I Don't!
What's this compelling content?
Korg makes synths! They are a keyboard manufacturer foremost, and that where there reputation lies.
The only thing you can guarantee to offer people is good sounds.
But then the majority sounds people like in Korg Trinity and Triton etc are based on Sample PLayback. And Oasys doesn't have any?
Physical modelling has turned another stupid industry buzzword that means nil!
A. You have to have something that sounds good in the first place to be modelled!
eg:Analog synthesizers?
B. The only major success stories so far based PM are those that model Analog, like virus, like Supernova, like AN1x.
I guess the bottom line for me re: Oasys is that if its NOT...
A. A mixer
B. Routing
C. Multichannel Multiclient Software I/O's
D. A sampler
E. A Sample player
F. A sample playback synth
G. A MIDI patchbay
H. An audio patchbay
I. A Plug-In architecture
J. Expandable
etc..
Then as a synth I think "it's not good enough .....'yet'!"
As a effects processor " it's to expensive and within it's own limited architecture not flexible enough.
I agree, We Disagree!
Have fun with your Oasys!
L.A.
Have I pinched a raw nerve or something? ha! ha! ha!
I guess what I'm trying to say that you haven't realised yet is that. In my opinion you have the weak argument.
It's all very well to use, "well the people I sell it to like it" to strengthen your point but to anyone else what does that mean? ZIP! Who are these professionals? What do you call professional?
That's a classic case of " but all my friends say my music rules Mr A&R man!"
To be quite frank if you were honest with yourself and went and asked a cross section of 'pros' about Oasys I think they would ask "why would I want to buy one of those and frig around with a synth building program when I can just buy a JV or a Triton and get on with the job".
Also, by saying 'sorry Dan' I was actually meaning "Sorry...to keep be down on your product".
The Graphics Suck! it looks as little time as possible was spent on that department, and there is nothing remotely inspiring about sticking numeric values in a text box when it comes to music.
Yes, I have had a very thorough demo of Oasys, and listened to dozens of sounds. My verdict.....(Lukewarm) It sounds to me like a not so good Z1! And I was listening to it through 1032 Genelecs!
As for synthkit, well forgive me again if I'd rather have something that I can relate to in a more inspiring and musical way to create synths.
I think by time any user had finished their first modular synth in Pulsar they would still be scratching their head with Synthkit.
Re: Modular 2 ......
I've tried yours and you obviously haven't tried mine.
The Mod 2 has FM, sample playback, wavetable, and various analog type oscillators. Over 140 modules are available for creating new synths.
it is efficient, fun to use and all the knobs and faders can be easily controlled via MIDI.
When I said "Well after Oasys has run out of....."
I mean Software I/O's, not voices.
32 channels of ASIO at 24/96, 32 channels of GSIF, Direct Sound, Wave all atthe same time and back if need be .
The Polyphony thing is silly, Oasys cost what ? twice what a Pulsar does.
Pulsar has 50% more DSP now, so add half more to every calculation you have for Pulsarsynth voices so far. And when you purchase a Pulsar SRB expansion as well for same same price as one Oasys you have 720MIPS of DSP to play with. And you can guess the rest.......
Why would I mix in Pulsar?
Do you have an external mixer in your studio? A Mackie, 01V or something? Well I don't! Because Pulsar is my mixer and I route all my synths and effects and mic channels straight into a 16 channel AD converter and into Pulsar. I therefore have extremely low noise, total recall, and all the routing possibilities I could ever need. All with zero latency!
How do I do that with Digital Performer?
I Don't!
What's this compelling content?
Korg makes synths! They are a keyboard manufacturer foremost, and that where there reputation lies.
The only thing you can guarantee to offer people is good sounds.
But then the majority sounds people like in Korg Trinity and Triton etc are based on Sample PLayback. And Oasys doesn't have any?
Physical modelling has turned another stupid industry buzzword that means nil!
A. You have to have something that sounds good in the first place to be modelled!
eg:Analog synthesizers?
B. The only major success stories so far based PM are those that model Analog, like virus, like Supernova, like AN1x.
I guess the bottom line for me re: Oasys is that if its NOT...
A. A mixer
B. Routing
C. Multichannel Multiclient Software I/O's
D. A sampler
E. A Sample player
F. A sample playback synth
G. A MIDI patchbay
H. An audio patchbay
I. A Plug-In architecture
J. Expandable
etc..
Then as a synth I think "it's not good enough .....'yet'!"
As a effects processor " it's to expensive and within it's own limited architecture not flexible enough.
I agree, We Disagree!
Have fun with your Oasys!
L.A.
Message 33/38 10-Nov-00 @ 04:46 AM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
whooo-oooo!... so hang about... let me go and check this pulsar/creamware site again, i aint been there for oooh.. a year at least..... (wanders off....)
(wanders back.......) -- fuck me!!!... they've been busy!!!.. man i had no idea... i'm going to need some time to digest that...
how much is PulsarII with the two racks as a package??
christ it reads akai PROGRAMMES!.. not just samples...!! wow!!!
"Of course, Akai files are imported with filter settings, loop points and keyboard mapping parameters. Simply insert a sample CD-ROM, load multiple banks into the Sample Player and play them as you would with any rackmount sampler. You can also store those files on your computer's hard disk."
bloody hell !!.. is that right!!... fuck well i know i've been busy for the last year, but dont they promote very much or something ??... i'm totally shocked at how far they changed in such a short time...
hey.. explain how it integrates with asio or easi (it HAS got easi THAT interests me for a start cos hardly anyone has got it together!!)... the site is very crap at explaining that ... can you go to that trouble please
like.. for example.. if i am in vst or logic, and i go to the mixer of either... when i go to the EQ or FX, i'm not working with pulsar there am i... i'm not sending OUT to pulsar FX as send fx etc am i or as insert fx?... or does the VST master out route IN to the pulsar mixer etc etc etc.. tell me really simply like explaining to a moron cos i only have an iq of 46...
and when they say low latency that is thru THEIR mixer dsp right.. i dont get that same low latency for my asio channels running from the rack IN's into vst/asio or logic with easi do i ?? - unfortunately the big images still aren't big enuff for me to see the routing visualy
anyways.. i'm drooling !!!... lets have more info please cos i feel a bit guilty for not knowing... sorry, been busy..
so i can link a Pulsar, and a sampler card, and run them both together with a 16 channel iinputs for my outboard!??!... and it loads akai 'programmes' ... phew!! - and i can play that shit in realtime !... wow cos, your average (or my average) ram use would be mebbe 4mb tops for a song cos i'd... i can spare that from 128 meg no probs!!...
well i just spen time listening to some Pulsar demo audio.. obviously at these bandwidth i cant be subjective about quality, especially as the oasys demo's are twice the bitrate of the pulsar ones.. but I can say the Pulsar stuff sounds very German... & the oasys stuff sounds american....
anyways... check this out: http://www.creamware.de/en/Contact/history.asp
(wanders back.......) -- fuck me!!!... they've been busy!!!.. man i had no idea... i'm going to need some time to digest that...
how much is PulsarII with the two racks as a package??
christ it reads akai PROGRAMMES!.. not just samples...!! wow!!!
bloody hell !!.. is that right!!... fuck well i know i've been busy for the last year, but dont they promote very much or something ??... i'm totally shocked at how far they changed in such a short time...
hey.. explain how it integrates with asio or easi (it HAS got easi THAT interests me for a start cos hardly anyone has got it together!!)... the site is very crap at explaining that ... can you go to that trouble please
like.. for example.. if i am in vst or logic, and i go to the mixer of either... when i go to the EQ or FX, i'm not working with pulsar there am i... i'm not sending OUT to pulsar FX as send fx etc am i or as insert fx?... or does the VST master out route IN to the pulsar mixer etc etc etc.. tell me really simply like explaining to a moron cos i only have an iq of 46...
and when they say low latency that is thru THEIR mixer dsp right.. i dont get that same low latency for my asio channels running from the rack IN's into vst/asio or logic with easi do i ?? - unfortunately the big images still aren't big enuff for me to see the routing visualy
anyways.. i'm drooling !!!... lets have more info please cos i feel a bit guilty for not knowing... sorry, been busy..
so i can link a Pulsar, and a sampler card, and run them both together with a 16 channel iinputs for my outboard!??!... and it loads akai 'programmes' ... phew!! - and i can play that shit in realtime !... wow cos, your average (or my average) ram use would be mebbe 4mb tops for a song cos i'd... i can spare that from 128 meg no probs!!...
well i just spen time listening to some Pulsar demo audio.. obviously at these bandwidth i cant be subjective about quality, especially as the oasys demo's are twice the bitrate of the pulsar ones.. but I can say the Pulsar stuff sounds very German... & the oasys stuff sounds american....
anyways... check this out: http://www.creamware.de/en/Contact/history.asp
Message 34/38 10-Nov-00 @ 10:34 AM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Future01:
I think that the spartan and functional interface of Oasys is more _professional_ than the luring eye-candy interface of Pulsar. It does what it is meant to do with no distractions an unnecessary burden to the system.
If you think that the Oasys doesn't sound as good as the Z1 you are in a vast minority. BTW, did you ever read the comments from John Bowen (who does synth plugins for Pulsar and has made presets for Korgs)? He has simply stated that Oasys _sounds_ clearly better than Pulsar or Z1.
As for SynthKit, there are lots of people making electronic music that want to get their hands dirty with the tiniest details of synth architecture. The "normal" Oasys users don't even have to see the SynthKit, though.
As I said, the Oasys has _enough_ ASIO streams and external I/O for most uses. I couldn't care less if it had 1000 ASIO streams. If the basic functionality is there, it's the SOUND and that counts.
You say:
>What's this compelling content?
>Korg makes synths! They are a keyboard >manufacturer foremost, and that where >there reputation lies.
>The only thing you can guarantee to >offer people is good sounds.
Well, good sounds is the main agenda of synth companies!
Didn't Dan just try to explain that the Oasys _is_ the content. Do you think it would be a better product if it was painted red and flashing and bouncing to attract buyers (i.e. appearance)?
As for sample playing, you have surely read that sample playback will be in OS version 2 (nearing beta) and it will come with most of the Triton sample ROM to boot. You are just ignoring this, is my guess.
About physical modelling: Well, most of the models are quite convincing. It might not be as relevant for electronic music but I can see for example Trip Hop groups using a decent and expressive acoustic bass sound (which Oasys can do). Or Trumpet or Flute or Electric Piano or...
The acoustic models can also be used to make non-imitative sounds - sounds that you could never do with just substractive/fm synthesis.
About the analog modelling: It just happens that Oasys has some of the smoothest analog modelling around. That's a fact.
You say:
>As a effects processor " it's to >expensive and within it's own limited >architecture not flexible enough.
This baffles me most. Not flexible enough? Compared to what? Have you checked the list of the out-of-the-box Oasys effects and read the available parameters? They are of great quality, too. You claim that the Pulsar can compare here? If I thought of the Oasys just as an effects processor, I can't come up with any other unit that can beat it as such.
I've nothing against the Pulsar, but you seem to be on a mission to make the Oasys seem less than it actually is.
- Jouni
I think that the spartan and functional interface of Oasys is more _professional_ than the luring eye-candy interface of Pulsar. It does what it is meant to do with no distractions an unnecessary burden to the system.
If you think that the Oasys doesn't sound as good as the Z1 you are in a vast minority. BTW, did you ever read the comments from John Bowen (who does synth plugins for Pulsar and has made presets for Korgs)? He has simply stated that Oasys _sounds_ clearly better than Pulsar or Z1.
As for SynthKit, there are lots of people making electronic music that want to get their hands dirty with the tiniest details of synth architecture. The "normal" Oasys users don't even have to see the SynthKit, though.
As I said, the Oasys has _enough_ ASIO streams and external I/O for most uses. I couldn't care less if it had 1000 ASIO streams. If the basic functionality is there, it's the SOUND and that counts.
You say:
>What's this compelling content?
>Korg makes synths! They are a keyboard >manufacturer foremost, and that where >there reputation lies.
>The only thing you can guarantee to >offer people is good sounds.
Well, good sounds is the main agenda of synth companies!
Didn't Dan just try to explain that the Oasys _is_ the content. Do you think it would be a better product if it was painted red and flashing and bouncing to attract buyers (i.e. appearance)?
As for sample playing, you have surely read that sample playback will be in OS version 2 (nearing beta) and it will come with most of the Triton sample ROM to boot. You are just ignoring this, is my guess.
About physical modelling: Well, most of the models are quite convincing. It might not be as relevant for electronic music but I can see for example Trip Hop groups using a decent and expressive acoustic bass sound (which Oasys can do). Or Trumpet or Flute or Electric Piano or...
The acoustic models can also be used to make non-imitative sounds - sounds that you could never do with just substractive/fm synthesis.
About the analog modelling: It just happens that Oasys has some of the smoothest analog modelling around. That's a fact.
You say:
>As a effects processor " it's to >expensive and within it's own limited >architecture not flexible enough.
This baffles me most. Not flexible enough? Compared to what? Have you checked the list of the out-of-the-box Oasys effects and read the available parameters? They are of great quality, too. You claim that the Pulsar can compare here? If I thought of the Oasys just as an effects processor, I can't come up with any other unit that can beat it as such.
I've nothing against the Pulsar, but you seem to be on a mission to make the Oasys seem less than it actually is.
- Jouni
Message 35/38 11-Nov-00 @ 01:40 AM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
>>>I think that the spartan and functional interface of Oasys is more _professional_ than the luring eye-candy interface of Pulsar. It does what it is meant to do with no distractions an unnecessary burden to the system.
Lucky you, I guess you've never used a pulsar!
Distraction?!!! PLEEEEAAASSEEEEE! Oops I forgot I was supposed to lay down a bass track cos I was to busy looking at all the pretty colours.......
>>>>If you think that the Oasys doesn't sound as good as the Z1 you are in a vast minority. BTW, did you ever read the comments from John Bowen (who does synth plugins for Pulsar and has made presets for Korgs)? He has simply stated that Oasys _sounds_ clearly better than Pulsar or Z1.
What minority, have you taken a survey....NO! I'm telling you in my opinion it does not sound as good as a Z1. Perhaps the presets are just better in a Z1!
John Bowen doesn't exactly say " the Oasys sounds better than Pulsar or Z1....!"
If he did then that's ludicrous! These things use DSP hardware that can run any number of new algorithms they could conceivable recreate each others sounds exactly with ported code.
So all he could have commented on in reference to would be the audio path, and the programming! Pulsar has improved enourmously since it was first released and sounds fantastic, the audio path is state of the art.
Just another point I might add that I thought was funny...
Dan reckons that the Minisynth sounds like a Minimoog!
Garbage!!! In fact could I be bothered I would go and dig out an old moog and let you hear the difference.
Anyway, the sound of a Minimoog ....straight out of the box sounds pretty naff in my opinion compared to what you can create with a new generation software version. I owned an original for years.
I'm not trying to say that Oasys could 'never' sound great, obviously it has the potential, I just think it doesn't sound that great right now.
Let's not debate personal taste huh? You like it .....I couldn't care less.
>>>>As I said, the Oasys has _enough_ ASIO streams and external I/O for most uses. I couldn't care less if it had 1000 ASIO streams. If the basic functionality is there, it's the SOUND and that counts.
No, not for 'most' uses, for 'YOUR' uses. Why should you think everyone works like you. Oasys is supposed to be a high-end pro card. I'm sure a large number of Pro's need more ASIO streams than 8.
>>>>Didn't Dan just try to explain that the Oasys _is_ the content. Do you think it would be a better product if it was painted red and flashing and bouncing to attract buyers (i.e. appearance)?
Dan explained nothing, perhaps thats why you are confused. I know what he means and I totally disagree.
You cannot compare a hardisk recorder that Pro-tools is with Oasys. That makes no sense.
However if we look at content.
A. Buy a Digi Pro-tools and you get a suite full of Plug-Ins that are excellent out of the box, ( your working already) not to mention that it is offering major compatibililty with a large number of other pro recorders and hardware.
THAT'S CONTENT!!
B. Buy a Creamware Pulsar, you get a studio in a box...32 channel digital mixer, 7 synths, Powerful modular sampling, sample playback, a bunch of effects, mega routing, a sample library, MIDI patchbay, Compatibility with all major HDR programs and software synths.
THAT'S CONTENT!
C. Buy an Oasys and you get sounds and effects.
THAT'S THE CONTENT KORG SELL....
Sound's and effects!
Well, like I said before... too expensive for the effects given the implementation and the synth sounds are not my cuppa.
>>>>As for sample playing, you have surely read that sample playback will be in OS version 2 (nearing beta) and it will come with most of the Triton sample ROM to boot. You are just ignoring this, is my guess.
I'm not ignoring anything! it hasn't happened yet so it doesn't count. You guys seem to ignore the ongoing development of Pulsar which has improved remarkably since it was released. I not trying to be a close minded dickhead, I'm giving you a detailed argument.
If V2.0 comes out and they implement the Triton ROM and program up some kick ass sounds, then you'll probably hear from me saying Oasys is the best thing on the planet!
Have 2 wait and see.......
>>>>About physical modelling: Well, most of the models are quite convincing. It might not be as relevant for electronic music but I can see for example Trip Hop groups using a decent and expressive acoustic bass sound (which Oasys can do). Or Trumpet or Flute or Electric Piano or...
Convincing you of what? that they sound like A. a trumpet? B. an Acoustic Bass?
Clean your ears out!
You know, physical modelling was not invented to give you a perfect representation of a flute or a trumpet or any other acoustic instrument. It was created because a detailed model of the acoustics of the instrument allows a greater number of expressive controls of the way the instrument sounds.
Ie: it sounds more "real".
But not like a real sax or trumpet. I mean you could probably create a great sax eventually by physical modelling but it still doesn't sound like a 'real' sax. Sampling would do a better job!
What you do get is the option to create a whole new instrument with organic acoustic qualities that plays like a real instrument. Like a wavedrum.
I know what you mean with the whole trip hop thing. Yeah sure, I can see the potential for some PM sounds, I'm not saying Oasys is totally useless.
>>>>>The acoustic models can also be used to make non-imitative sounds - sounds that you could never do with just substractive/fm synthesis.
'non imitative'?
Yeah cos subtractive/fm synthesis can only imitate real stuff huh. Like imitating a real rez filter sweep ( what a classic instrument that was)
and oh that oscillator hard sync..getting pretty close to sounding like an original wooden one of those : )
>>>>About the analog modelling: It just happens that Oasys has some of the smoothest analog modelling around. That's a fact.
Smooth? what with you guys and this smooth?
Lets see you build a synth for Oasys with a smooth control so we can hear it with and without smooth, huh?
Stick a low pass filter on anything and people will say it sounds smooth!
>>>>I've nothing against the Pulsar, but you seem to be on a mission to make the Oasys seem less than it actually is.
See what 'you' will, I'm just calling it as 'I' see it. No mission parameters here baby!
Rock on!
L.A.
Lucky you, I guess you've never used a pulsar!
Distraction?!!! PLEEEEAAASSEEEEE! Oops I forgot I was supposed to lay down a bass track cos I was to busy looking at all the pretty colours.......
>>>>If you think that the Oasys doesn't sound as good as the Z1 you are in a vast minority. BTW, did you ever read the comments from John Bowen (who does synth plugins for Pulsar and has made presets for Korgs)? He has simply stated that Oasys _sounds_ clearly better than Pulsar or Z1.
What minority, have you taken a survey....NO! I'm telling you in my opinion it does not sound as good as a Z1. Perhaps the presets are just better in a Z1!
John Bowen doesn't exactly say " the Oasys sounds better than Pulsar or Z1....!"
If he did then that's ludicrous! These things use DSP hardware that can run any number of new algorithms they could conceivable recreate each others sounds exactly with ported code.
So all he could have commented on in reference to would be the audio path, and the programming! Pulsar has improved enourmously since it was first released and sounds fantastic, the audio path is state of the art.
Just another point I might add that I thought was funny...
Dan reckons that the Minisynth sounds like a Minimoog!
Garbage!!! In fact could I be bothered I would go and dig out an old moog and let you hear the difference.
Anyway, the sound of a Minimoog ....straight out of the box sounds pretty naff in my opinion compared to what you can create with a new generation software version. I owned an original for years.
I'm not trying to say that Oasys could 'never' sound great, obviously it has the potential, I just think it doesn't sound that great right now.
Let's not debate personal taste huh? You like it .....I couldn't care less.
>>>>As I said, the Oasys has _enough_ ASIO streams and external I/O for most uses. I couldn't care less if it had 1000 ASIO streams. If the basic functionality is there, it's the SOUND and that counts.
No, not for 'most' uses, for 'YOUR' uses. Why should you think everyone works like you. Oasys is supposed to be a high-end pro card. I'm sure a large number of Pro's need more ASIO streams than 8.
>>>>Didn't Dan just try to explain that the Oasys _is_ the content. Do you think it would be a better product if it was painted red and flashing and bouncing to attract buyers (i.e. appearance)?
Dan explained nothing, perhaps thats why you are confused. I know what he means and I totally disagree.
You cannot compare a hardisk recorder that Pro-tools is with Oasys. That makes no sense.
However if we look at content.
A. Buy a Digi Pro-tools and you get a suite full of Plug-Ins that are excellent out of the box, ( your working already) not to mention that it is offering major compatibililty with a large number of other pro recorders and hardware.
THAT'S CONTENT!!
B. Buy a Creamware Pulsar, you get a studio in a box...32 channel digital mixer, 7 synths, Powerful modular sampling, sample playback, a bunch of effects, mega routing, a sample library, MIDI patchbay, Compatibility with all major HDR programs and software synths.
THAT'S CONTENT!
C. Buy an Oasys and you get sounds and effects.
THAT'S THE CONTENT KORG SELL....
Sound's and effects!
Well, like I said before... too expensive for the effects given the implementation and the synth sounds are not my cuppa.
>>>>As for sample playing, you have surely read that sample playback will be in OS version 2 (nearing beta) and it will come with most of the Triton sample ROM to boot. You are just ignoring this, is my guess.
I'm not ignoring anything! it hasn't happened yet so it doesn't count. You guys seem to ignore the ongoing development of Pulsar which has improved remarkably since it was released. I not trying to be a close minded dickhead, I'm giving you a detailed argument.
If V2.0 comes out and they implement the Triton ROM and program up some kick ass sounds, then you'll probably hear from me saying Oasys is the best thing on the planet!
Have 2 wait and see.......
>>>>About physical modelling: Well, most of the models are quite convincing. It might not be as relevant for electronic music but I can see for example Trip Hop groups using a decent and expressive acoustic bass sound (which Oasys can do). Or Trumpet or Flute or Electric Piano or...
Convincing you of what? that they sound like A. a trumpet? B. an Acoustic Bass?
Clean your ears out!
You know, physical modelling was not invented to give you a perfect representation of a flute or a trumpet or any other acoustic instrument. It was created because a detailed model of the acoustics of the instrument allows a greater number of expressive controls of the way the instrument sounds.
Ie: it sounds more "real".
But not like a real sax or trumpet. I mean you could probably create a great sax eventually by physical modelling but it still doesn't sound like a 'real' sax. Sampling would do a better job!
What you do get is the option to create a whole new instrument with organic acoustic qualities that plays like a real instrument. Like a wavedrum.
I know what you mean with the whole trip hop thing. Yeah sure, I can see the potential for some PM sounds, I'm not saying Oasys is totally useless.
>>>>>The acoustic models can also be used to make non-imitative sounds - sounds that you could never do with just substractive/fm synthesis.
'non imitative'?
Yeah cos subtractive/fm synthesis can only imitate real stuff huh. Like imitating a real rez filter sweep ( what a classic instrument that was)
and oh that oscillator hard sync..getting pretty close to sounding like an original wooden one of those : )
>>>>About the analog modelling: It just happens that Oasys has some of the smoothest analog modelling around. That's a fact.
Smooth? what with you guys and this smooth?
Lets see you build a synth for Oasys with a smooth control so we can hear it with and without smooth, huh?
Stick a low pass filter on anything and people will say it sounds smooth!
>>>>I've nothing against the Pulsar, but you seem to be on a mission to make the Oasys seem less than it actually is.
See what 'you' will, I'm just calling it as 'I' see it. No mission parameters here baby!
Rock on!
L.A.
Message 36/38 11-Nov-00 @ 10:14 PM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Well kilo, I'll try to explain some things. If you, say, work in VST (as I do) and want to use Pulsar fx, any of your asio channels can be routed individually into Pulsar's mixer (or just the efect module). You have an asio module within Pulsar, and you can specify how many asio channels you want to have routed (up to 32). Then in VST you open master mixer section and you just have to activate the buses - VST shows as many buses as you've specified in Pulsar! VST kinda sees Pulsar as many hardware outputs. As for latency, with Pulsar 2 you should get the numbers down to a few ms, making possible to use vst fx and instruments in real time. I have to say that I haven't tried this as I have two PulsarI cards linked together. It's so addictive that now I'm thinking about Scope/SP or at least a PUlsar II SRB expansion card. This would probably allow me to make complete arrangements without having to bounce to audio tracks. Hope this helps a little. I must also say that Dan got me interested, I need to see and hear Oasys in action.
Message 37/38 14-Nov-00 @ 12:13 PM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Future01, if you honestly think that the Oasys doesn't sound good enough for you, I don't think I can "argue" about it. I haven't heard of a single user that doesn't think it sounds top-notch, though (and better than most anything out there, even)...
Anyway, about the content thing:
>A. Buy a Digi Pro-tools and you get a >suite full of Plug-Ins that are >excellent out of the box, ( your >working already) not to mention that >it is offering major compatibililty >with a large number of other pro >recorders and hardware.
Even not taking into account the price of the Pro-tools system... Where can I see a list of the Plug-ins included out-of-the-box? I seriously doubt that it comes even nearly as many plug-ins that the Oasys comes with. Also, are you implying that the Oasys doesn't offer similar compatibility?
>THAT'S CONTENT!!
But Oasys having similar content (only more so?!) doesn't matter?
>B. Buy a Creamware Pulsar, you get a >studio in a box...32 channel digital >mixer, 7 synths, Powerful modular >sampling, sample playback, a bunch of >effects, mega routing, a sample >library, MIDI patchbay, Compatibility >with all major HDR programs and >software synths.
>THAT'S CONTENT!
>C. Buy an Oasys and you get sounds and effects.
>THAT'S THE CONTENT KORG SELL....
>Sound's and effects!
AND you get a small digital mixer and compatibility with other hardware, sequencers and softsynths. Just like with Pulsar, only less mixer channels. But you get more DSP power, much more effects and synthesis models (physical modelling, not your cup of tea though) you don't get with Pulsar.
>>>>>The acoustic models can also be used to make non-imitative sounds - sounds that you could never do with just substractive/fm synthesis.
>'non imitative'?
>Yeah cos subtractive/fm synthesis can >only imitate real stuff huh. Like >imitating a real rez filter sweep ( >what a classic instrument that was) >and oh that oscillator hard >sync..getting pretty close to sounding >like an original wooden one of >those : )
You misunderstood my comment. I meant that you can make such non-imitative sounds with acoustic physical modelling that you couldn't produce with normal VCO-VCF-VCA modelling. Even if acoustic modelling is "usually" used for imitative sounds.
As for the smoothness of the analog modelling, there are objective qualities that can be judged, IMHO. Such as oscillator aliasing and the general "graininess" of the sound. The Z1 sounds more grainy and less smooth than the Oasys, and this is because the algorithms in the Z1 have been made to fit the fixed available processing power.
Earlier, you state:
>What minority, have you taken a >survey....NO! I'm telling you in my >opinion it does not sound as good as a >Z1. Perhaps the presets are just >better in a Z1! John Bowen doesn't >exactly say " the Oasys sounds better >than Pulsar or Z1....!"
>If he did then that's ludicrous! These >things use DSP hardware that can run >any number of new algorithms they >could conceivable recreate each others >sounds exactly with ported code.
Well, the algorithms are exactly the _content_ and it is not some freeware code but intellectual property. But if you don't think Oasys sounds good, then this of course means nothing to you...
- Jouni
>Well, like I said before... too >expensive for the effects given the >implementation and the synth sounds >are not my cuppa.
Oasys has less mixer channels than Pro-tools or P
Message 38/38 14-Nov-00 @ 12:16 PM - RE: How are the Creamware synth cards?
Damn, it is hard to reply to messages with this dinky little editing window! :-(
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