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Subject: "I didn't know you couldn't......"
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Original Message Date: 28-Apr-04 @ 09:41 PM Edit: 28-Apr-04 | 09:42 PM - "I didn't know you couldn't.......
...punch POWs in the face!?!"
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
quote
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
Message 111/147 11-May-04 @ 11:55 PM - RE:
all you gotta understand is jabba-the-hut dick cheney and you can know everything you need to know about what governs our universe.
he's still smiles on his way to these meetings.
and i mean what a smile.
he's still smiles on his way to these meetings.
and i mean what a smile.
Message 112/147 12-May-04 @ 05:07 PM - RE:
cc your rumination on america's character as a by product of it's facilities seems a bit off.. you depict it like america is just so good and suddenly we're noticing that "we're too good or something," when in reality, you have to be an asshole first before you start patrolling the school grounds as a braggart. it's not like the u.s. went to iraq with good intentions that went awry, the intentions were duplicitous from the get go.
you start thinking "this "kill all americans" bit isn't right" and then you set out to justify this via 'americans are diverse,' et c. it's a bit silly.. there's no justification for not killing people. in fact, your whole post is a bit waffly/casual like you just wanted to type - fair enough :p i can't imagine that you actually think these things.
"i try to imagine what their parents must think" you're amusing yourself, toying with your capacity to imagine emotions, displace ego whatever. it's quite clear what their parents thought - the rush of shock/realisation/refusal and/or acceptance anyone who's taken a psychedelic should be familiar with. this unpleasantness isn't a justification for anything.
i try not to make a point of punishing people for their illusions.. but i definately don't forgive them unconditionally for them.
every american who ever picked up a can of bug spray is culpable. on a visceral level, you know when you're fucking up the universe for others. you don't get in a car and not realise that you're creating poison.. you just ignore it because you don't care.
plain and simple. there are always two parties responsible in any deception.
you start thinking "this "kill all americans" bit isn't right" and then you set out to justify this via 'americans are diverse,' et c. it's a bit silly.. there's no justification for not killing people. in fact, your whole post is a bit waffly/casual like you just wanted to type - fair enough :p i can't imagine that you actually think these things.
"i try to imagine what their parents must think" you're amusing yourself, toying with your capacity to imagine emotions, displace ego whatever. it's quite clear what their parents thought - the rush of shock/realisation/refusal and/or acceptance anyone who's taken a psychedelic should be familiar with. this unpleasantness isn't a justification for anything.
i try not to make a point of punishing people for their illusions.. but i definately don't forgive them unconditionally for them.
every american who ever picked up a can of bug spray is culpable. on a visceral level, you know when you're fucking up the universe for others. you don't get in a car and not realise that you're creating poison.. you just ignore it because you don't care.
plain and simple. there are always two parties responsible in any deception.
Message 113/147 12-May-04 @ 06:00 PM - RE:
from my end at least....
e~ almost always has this roundabout manner in describing his viewpoint.
which is fine if you have some previous foundation from which to transcribe his hieroglyphic.
none of us are so different in that regard.
there are times, however, when juxtaposing poetry with hard-opinion
tends to lose sway.
as artists we all struggle with this need to reflect our surroundings in as creative a manner as possible.
i think this simple aspect is quite often the only thing that separates us from politicians.
e~ almost always has this roundabout manner in describing his viewpoint.
which is fine if you have some previous foundation from which to transcribe his hieroglyphic.
none of us are so different in that regard.
there are times, however, when juxtaposing poetry with hard-opinion
tends to lose sway.
as artists we all struggle with this need to reflect our surroundings in as creative a manner as possible.
i think this simple aspect is quite often the only thing that separates us from politicians.
Message 114/147 12-May-04 @ 06:15 PM - RE:
Whoa, hey, hold on... I clearly didn't express myself very well if that's what you got xoxos...
I don't believe killing people is a reasonable means to any end... I'm not going to pretty it up with "diverse" populations, etc... I don't agree with terrorist methods, I do see their point.
And It helps me see their point that someone in Oklahoma said something and people in other countries figure it's a reflection of our cultural values. I've been to Oklahoma... some Oklahomans disagree with his callous attitude, but the vast majority don't (I think) making his opinion a cultural one. Where as, where I live many people disagree... I wouldn't say it's a majority, I'm not sure, because those who do agree with him may well not voice their real opinions in mixed company due to the cultural values of my region, which for the most part contradict his opinions. So, it's the regional diversity that makes me think that maybe the US is too big... there's no concensus in this country... we no longer agree on fundamental issues like war, violence and morality.
So maybe we're too big. So big that we can be assholes and not have to answer for it. Yes we've always been assholes, it's sort of a human condition... hell, ask the native american, he'll tell you what pricks "Americans" (those in charge) are. But with the power and resources we have we can do it with impunity...
I don't need to be told that America had poor intentions going into Iraq... I don't personaly believe that this country had good intentions going into WW2... We're self absorbed bottom feeders... Vultures with attitude... That's what i was gettin' at up there...
As for the parents... I said i dunno... and I don't. It's good that you do, but I can't be sure that anyone is inherently so f+cked up that they would be happy to raise their children to be what it takes to do the things we've seen. But maybe you're right... I agree that those who are complicit in allowing and feeding a monster are indeed monsters.
but I wasn't celebrating the diversity of Americans (though I might...), and I wasn't saying America was EVER good... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there... but I suspect what's screwed up about us now is the same thing that's always been screwed up about us. Fear seasoned with a determined disregard for anything that doesn't match our notion of how it should be...
e
I don't believe killing people is a reasonable means to any end... I'm not going to pretty it up with "diverse" populations, etc... I don't agree with terrorist methods, I do see their point.
And It helps me see their point that someone in Oklahoma said something and people in other countries figure it's a reflection of our cultural values. I've been to Oklahoma... some Oklahomans disagree with his callous attitude, but the vast majority don't (I think) making his opinion a cultural one. Where as, where I live many people disagree... I wouldn't say it's a majority, I'm not sure, because those who do agree with him may well not voice their real opinions in mixed company due to the cultural values of my region, which for the most part contradict his opinions. So, it's the regional diversity that makes me think that maybe the US is too big... there's no concensus in this country... we no longer agree on fundamental issues like war, violence and morality.
So maybe we're too big. So big that we can be assholes and not have to answer for it. Yes we've always been assholes, it's sort of a human condition... hell, ask the native american, he'll tell you what pricks "Americans" (those in charge) are. But with the power and resources we have we can do it with impunity...
I don't need to be told that America had poor intentions going into Iraq... I don't personaly believe that this country had good intentions going into WW2... We're self absorbed bottom feeders... Vultures with attitude... That's what i was gettin' at up there...
As for the parents... I said i dunno... and I don't. It's good that you do, but I can't be sure that anyone is inherently so f+cked up that they would be happy to raise their children to be what it takes to do the things we've seen. But maybe you're right... I agree that those who are complicit in allowing and feeding a monster are indeed monsters.
but I wasn't celebrating the diversity of Americans (though I might...), and I wasn't saying America was EVER good... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there... but I suspect what's screwed up about us now is the same thing that's always been screwed up about us. Fear seasoned with a determined disregard for anything that doesn't match our notion of how it should be...
e
Message 115/147 12-May-04 @ 07:18 PM - RE:
plus....as the saying goes:
it takes a man to admit when he's made a mistake.
it takes a man to admit when he's made a mistake.
Message 116/147 13-May-04 @ 12:56 PM - RE:
So individuals are not responsible but nations are to blame (again).
What gets me is the sheer sheep stupidity of this use of the concept 'us'. When did the American dream ever have a space for a 'we' - isn't that the point that 'you' can do it, 'you' can achieve regardless of your background and 'do'. And what of this 'us', when you move reactions to a mass it becomes more predictable (and manipulable??) so you have your 'us' and they have your 'us' - still
Nah really lets forget this tub thumping, 'us', 'them', whatever, all this rabble rousing is a blank for certain public and private 'individuals' spending and recieving large amounts of public money for military consumables (including people) and making a killing at your expense. And thats just your take, between inoccupier and occupied we are laughing at the american peoples stupidity at putting up with it or cursing cos our lives are being intimidated or changed by it. Of course none of 'us' have any idea about the reality of being occupied and thats probably where to think, like what would you guys be doing if there were a bunch of heathen decadent race occupying Washington, lording massive military and political force over you and yours and blindly / consistently supporting a nearby enemy
What gets me is the sheer sheep stupidity of this use of the concept 'us'. When did the American dream ever have a space for a 'we' - isn't that the point that 'you' can do it, 'you' can achieve regardless of your background and 'do'. And what of this 'us', when you move reactions to a mass it becomes more predictable (and manipulable??) so you have your 'us' and they have your 'us' - still
Nah really lets forget this tub thumping, 'us', 'them', whatever, all this rabble rousing is a blank for certain public and private 'individuals' spending and recieving large amounts of public money for military consumables (including people) and making a killing at your expense. And thats just your take, between inoccupier and occupied we are laughing at the american peoples stupidity at putting up with it or cursing cos our lives are being intimidated or changed by it. Of course none of 'us' have any idea about the reality of being occupied and thats probably where to think, like what would you guys be doing if there were a bunch of heathen decadent race occupying Washington, lording massive military and political force over you and yours and blindly / consistently supporting a nearby enemy
Message 117/147 13-May-04 @ 04:29 PM - RE:
no one (here at least) seems to be suggesting that the americans pictured in the abuse-photos aren't responsible.
what we're saying is that they're getting directives from somewhere.
somewhere vague, nebulous, obscure....but very, very real.
and this needs to be addressed.
besides cheds.....anytime someone tells me they show up with 30% protective swathing...
we can assume it's more like 60% or 70% (at the very least) so please quit pretending.
what we're saying is that they're getting directives from somewhere.
somewhere vague, nebulous, obscure....but very, very real.
and this needs to be addressed.
besides cheds.....anytime someone tells me they show up with 30% protective swathing...
we can assume it's more like 60% or 70% (at the very least) so please quit pretending.
Message 118/147 13-May-04 @ 06:07 PM - RE:
Sorry Cheddar... I don't see it that way.
There is a strong individual "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America, I agree wholeheartedly.. and I don't approve of it! You're right on that one... but AMerica is at it's worst when we act as a nation, man!!! People in the US have a terrible fear response that drives their herd mentality... the whole "do it yourself" thing goes out the window at the slightest perceived threat. People in America were afraid of the gun toting survivalist types 10 years ago (and hell, one of them blew up a federal building and killed a bunch of little babies)... those were rugged individual types who personified the selfish ethic of "American Values", not pretty, not at all...
But what's profoundly worst is when Americans get together behind a cause and wave flags and celebrate their "us-ness"! Then we have God, and Gold and entitlement... That's when we're dangerous.
e
There is a strong individual "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America, I agree wholeheartedly.. and I don't approve of it! You're right on that one... but AMerica is at it's worst when we act as a nation, man!!! People in the US have a terrible fear response that drives their herd mentality... the whole "do it yourself" thing goes out the window at the slightest perceived threat. People in America were afraid of the gun toting survivalist types 10 years ago (and hell, one of them blew up a federal building and killed a bunch of little babies)... those were rugged individual types who personified the selfish ethic of "American Values", not pretty, not at all...
But what's profoundly worst is when Americans get together behind a cause and wave flags and celebrate their "us-ness"! Then we have God, and Gold and entitlement... That's when we're dangerous.
e
Message 119/147 13-May-04 @ 06:12 PM - RE:
lets put an end to this right now.... "US" and "We" bullshit.
when america was fighting for its freedom, for its right to soverignity...the only thing on the minds of the "framers" of the constitution was themselves. Business men whom understood that while under the wing of Great Britain that they'd never get away with the shit that they wanted to get away with...thus; revolt.
read the Federalist Papers for christs sake...its all right there. John Jay, Alexander Hamiliton, and James Madison...those are the men that molded america into the fucking monster its become. Electoral College....strength of the federal government over the states....these men knew how to usurp control... and then keep it in a headlock with the "noooogie" always looming above your dome. and its been that way since.
American schools don't teach this shit. in second or third grade you are still told that Christopher Columbus discovered america. and that the Pilgrims and the indians got along. and that scalping of the "colonists" was something that natives had done to each other before whitey ever showed his face. ALL BULLSHIT! yet, its perpetuated throughout early academia.
Critical thinking skills are not fostered in america's schools, and this leads to the sheepification of the american population. and I guess if you want to get all Machiavellian about it.... if the government wants to maintain control of their "subjects", its a whole lot easier with a bunch of fucking idiots running around concerned with how loud their speakers are or when the new dave matthews band bootleg is dropping. so, in essence it serves the government to keep its citizenry dumb...all you have to do is look at the state of schools here.
What we need is a paradigm shift.... the catalyst for such things I'm not sure of... but humankind needs something.
when america was fighting for its freedom, for its right to soverignity...the only thing on the minds of the "framers" of the constitution was themselves. Business men whom understood that while under the wing of Great Britain that they'd never get away with the shit that they wanted to get away with...thus; revolt.
read the Federalist Papers for christs sake...its all right there. John Jay, Alexander Hamiliton, and James Madison...those are the men that molded america into the fucking monster its become. Electoral College....strength of the federal government over the states....these men knew how to usurp control... and then keep it in a headlock with the "noooogie" always looming above your dome. and its been that way since.
American schools don't teach this shit. in second or third grade you are still told that Christopher Columbus discovered america. and that the Pilgrims and the indians got along. and that scalping of the "colonists" was something that natives had done to each other before whitey ever showed his face. ALL BULLSHIT! yet, its perpetuated throughout early academia.
Critical thinking skills are not fostered in america's schools, and this leads to the sheepification of the american population. and I guess if you want to get all Machiavellian about it.... if the government wants to maintain control of their "subjects", its a whole lot easier with a bunch of fucking idiots running around concerned with how loud their speakers are or when the new dave matthews band bootleg is dropping. so, in essence it serves the government to keep its citizenry dumb...all you have to do is look at the state of schools here.
What we need is a paradigm shift.... the catalyst for such things I'm not sure of... but humankind needs something.
Message 120/147 18-May-04 @ 07:32 AM - RE:
for those of you following these stories.....
and especially for our energetic and much-appreciated friend...dissonance.
perhaps the most comprehensive and well layed-out argument against the madness which we know as iraq.
like if you had to read just one....this might be it:web-link
and especially for our energetic and much-appreciated friend...dissonance.
perhaps the most comprehensive and well layed-out argument against the madness which we know as iraq.
like if you had to read just one....this might be it:web-link
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