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Forums - The lounge
Subject: "I didn't know you couldn't......"
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Original Message Date: 28-Apr-04 @ 09:41 PM Edit: 28-Apr-04 | 09:42 PM - "I didn't know you couldn't.......
...punch POWs in the face!?!"
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
quote
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
Message 121/147 18-May-04 @ 07:58 AM - RE:
hey errata...would you prefer more government or less?
cuz..those "not pretty...survivalists"...if you drop the stupid ing white power thing are really just extremely intent on maintaining their own freedom
kinda like what we talk about here all the time
cuz..those "not pretty...survivalists"...if you drop the stupid ing white power thing are really just extremely intent on maintaining their own freedom
kinda like what we talk about here all the time
Message 122/147 18-May-04 @ 04:47 PM - RE:
influx...i'm curious as to your take on the notion of more OR less government.
especially in light of the fact that conservative principals always use big-government and big-spending as the duo-evils to eradicate....until they're in of course.
well....we've got a pretty good picture of what the new-right's version of
less-government means at this point.
more money for war.
more governmental police surveillance.
fewer restrictions on those corporations ready and able to pay enormous kickbacks.
"less-government" guys like rumsfeld and cheney...porofessional survivors from nixon's inner-sanctum governing in an even more secretive and treacherous and vengeful environment.
i like the white-house calling mel gibson and letting him know if he were to fund the moore film....there'd be NO MORE DINNER INVITATIONS FOR HIM.
i can just see this guy who stood up to hollywood from within it's own ranks going:
oh? no dinner?
that don't sound like freedom to me.
sounds like a threat.
and yes...they do bother to call.
especially in light of the fact that conservative principals always use big-government and big-spending as the duo-evils to eradicate....until they're in of course.
well....we've got a pretty good picture of what the new-right's version of
less-government means at this point.
more money for war.
more governmental police surveillance.
fewer restrictions on those corporations ready and able to pay enormous kickbacks.
"less-government" guys like rumsfeld and cheney...porofessional survivors from nixon's inner-sanctum governing in an even more secretive and treacherous and vengeful environment.
i like the white-house calling mel gibson and letting him know if he were to fund the moore film....there'd be NO MORE DINNER INVITATIONS FOR HIM.
i can just see this guy who stood up to hollywood from within it's own ranks going:
oh? no dinner?
that don't sound like freedom to me.
sounds like a threat.
and yes...they do bother to call.
Message 123/147 18-May-04 @ 05:41 PM - RE:
"if it's glorious, you're probably making it up. "
LOL !!!!
sorry, i missed this gem
doubleplusgood
LOL !!!!
sorry, i missed this gem
doubleplusgood
Message 124/147 18-May-04 @ 11:46 PM - RE:
quote
doubleplusgood
doubleplusgood
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 126/147 19-May-04 @ 05:54 AM - RE:
hmmm. less government?
tough, just like everything else, eh?
BUT...dont tell me what to do. Dont tell YOU what to do
except when it involves others. Either their harm or (truly) potential harm.
but then...on the other side...part of me thinks that if the citizenry contributes to the government, then the government should take care of the citizenry. Without question, no special treatment.
I personally think healthcare should be public sector, but of course...well...any good social medicine systems out there?
the military should be for pure defense. none of this $2500000000000000000000 spent in the desert 12000 miles away
Hell, I dont claim to even remotely understand the workings of the US/word at present OR in theory, but I know something is WRONG. horribly wrong.
and...talkin about hope in the other thread? I still get these romantic flashes of what _could be_ if only just....
tough, just like everything else, eh?
BUT...dont tell me what to do. Dont tell YOU what to do
except when it involves others. Either their harm or (truly) potential harm.
but then...on the other side...part of me thinks that if the citizenry contributes to the government, then the government should take care of the citizenry. Without question, no special treatment.
I personally think healthcare should be public sector, but of course...well...any good social medicine systems out there?
the military should be for pure defense. none of this $2500000000000000000000 spent in the desert 12000 miles away
Hell, I dont claim to even remotely understand the workings of the US/word at present OR in theory, but I know something is WRONG. horribly wrong.
and...talkin about hope in the other thread? I still get these romantic flashes of what _could be_ if only just....
Message 127/147 19-May-04 @ 04:45 PM - RE:
those romantic flashes are what keeps us going.
call it what you want....but it's human to dream and want and hope.
never let the ogre take that away from you.
l
call it what you want....but it's human to dream and want and hope.
never let the ogre take that away from you.
l
Message 128/147 19-May-04 @ 05:46 PM - RE:
Influx,
i'm a an unrepentant socialist! For me it's not about more or less government. It's about a different attitude amongst the people. and working to encourage that! I believe we should indeed have a government, one which limits the gross power of business and maintains a military devoted to defense (an unfortunately necesarry evil in our unfortunate world) and ensures the simple public safetly from violence. But what I "want" requires a change in the attitudes of most people that wil probably not happen. So instead I'll settle for a balance of decent attitudes (generosity, compassion) and I'll support the right of others to disagree with me.
As for the survivalists... I wholeheartedly disagree. These are people (yes they still exist) who are driven by fear and agression. I knew a few about 10 years ago... they're armed, they're angry and they're afraid. Most of that movement is prepared for war. And I can't overlook the white power thing... it's a fundamental aspect of most of those philosophies. They are armed, angry white people who are afraid of everything that isn't them. (Of course there are others who live in the same way that don't meet these notions... I'm talking about the movement, therefore I'm unfortunately stereotyping)... they aren't ALL like that.
But, bottom line, I believe those with have a necesarry responsibility to those without. shrug
e
i'm a an unrepentant socialist! For me it's not about more or less government. It's about a different attitude amongst the people. and working to encourage that! I believe we should indeed have a government, one which limits the gross power of business and maintains a military devoted to defense (an unfortunately necesarry evil in our unfortunate world) and ensures the simple public safetly from violence. But what I "want" requires a change in the attitudes of most people that wil probably not happen. So instead I'll settle for a balance of decent attitudes (generosity, compassion) and I'll support the right of others to disagree with me.
As for the survivalists... I wholeheartedly disagree. These are people (yes they still exist) who are driven by fear and agression. I knew a few about 10 years ago... they're armed, they're angry and they're afraid. Most of that movement is prepared for war. And I can't overlook the white power thing... it's a fundamental aspect of most of those philosophies. They are armed, angry white people who are afraid of everything that isn't them. (Of course there are others who live in the same way that don't meet these notions... I'm talking about the movement, therefore I'm unfortunately stereotyping)... they aren't ALL like that.
But, bottom line, I believe those with have a necesarry responsibility to those without. shrug
e
Message 129/147 20-May-04 @ 02:34 AM - RE:
you'll never hear a black man running around saying he's a survivalist.
he's in the hood...in the jungle....he don't have to say he's a survivalist.
he just simply is.
brother can you spare a dime?
survivalists are generally somewhat well-off anti-social white-folk...which is cool to an extent if you wanna be by yourself and talk to the squirrels and stuff in between writing your hopeless manifesto and making pots out of earthen clay.
unfortunately> polishing that rifle-barrel and always looking back to make sure no city-folk followed you seem to be such a part of the consciousness.
personally...i have a tough time tolerating people too.
but you know what? people seem to be the only ones with money.
squirrels got no money.
and well...i got some kneepads and gloves and a trowel and perhaps i could do some beautifying of your home?
it will cost you however.
and guaranteed we don't have to like each other.
he's in the hood...in the jungle....he don't have to say he's a survivalist.
he just simply is.
brother can you spare a dime?
survivalists are generally somewhat well-off anti-social white-folk...which is cool to an extent if you wanna be by yourself and talk to the squirrels and stuff in between writing your hopeless manifesto and making pots out of earthen clay.
unfortunately> polishing that rifle-barrel and always looking back to make sure no city-folk followed you seem to be such a part of the consciousness.
personally...i have a tough time tolerating people too.
but you know what? people seem to be the only ones with money.
squirrels got no money.
and well...i got some kneepads and gloves and a trowel and perhaps i could do some beautifying of your home?
it will cost you however.
and guaranteed we don't have to like each other.
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