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Forums - The lounge
Subject: "I didn't know you couldn't......"
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Original Message Date: 28-Apr-04 @ 09:41 PM Edit: 28-Apr-04 | 09:42 PM - "I didn't know you couldn't.......
...punch POWs in the face!?!"
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
quote
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
Message 131/147 21-May-04 @ 05:31 PM - RE:
Hey, mcc...
are you saying you hate the hands that feed you?
e
are you saying you hate the hands that feed you?
e
Message 132/147 21-May-04 @ 08:28 PM - RE:
i had a potential customer who recently tried to do me with one of these polite little affronts
by saying
"i don't want you to start coming in 2 hours a day and take 8 months to finish this job".
what she was saying was that she was this non-white super hardcore christian wanna be white suv-er and practiced pronouncing judgment on anyone who's been able to make a reputation as a free-spirit....hard-ass working...give the customer an unreal deal and still be able to say they got a great piece of work at a great price...in a generally friendly and reliable, professional manner.....and yet she can still rub her little subtle polite christian superiority crap in my face.
believe me it's there. we're face to face and toe to toe.
i told her i wasn't sure what she was trying to suggest but for 1750.00 this job would only allow me 10 days or 2 weeks to get things done.
this had all been spelled-out in advance.
well...as usual...she knew she was spitting silly crap and started back-pedalling AND fast....explaining how they had a friend take 8 months to do something...and i'm like...vera...i'm not that guy.
(for one.....we're not friends.)
by saying
"i don't want you to start coming in 2 hours a day and take 8 months to finish this job".
what she was saying was that she was this non-white super hardcore christian wanna be white suv-er and practiced pronouncing judgment on anyone who's been able to make a reputation as a free-spirit....hard-ass working...give the customer an unreal deal and still be able to say they got a great piece of work at a great price...in a generally friendly and reliable, professional manner.....and yet she can still rub her little subtle polite christian superiority crap in my face.
believe me it's there. we're face to face and toe to toe.
i told her i wasn't sure what she was trying to suggest but for 1750.00 this job would only allow me 10 days or 2 weeks to get things done.
this had all been spelled-out in advance.
well...as usual...she knew she was spitting silly crap and started back-pedalling AND fast....explaining how they had a friend take 8 months to do something...and i'm like...vera...i'm not that guy.
(for one.....we're not friends.)
Message 133/147 21-May-04 @ 08:41 PM - RE:
too much thinkin involved here.
Im only "scared" of having the meager income I have taken from me to do horrible things. The idea of a semi-isolated property appeals to me in some ways. Being left alone, not hassled.
youre right tho...Christian Identity, W.A.R.....thats what people see as "survivalists"
there are plenty though who's only philosophy is that the current govt is out of control (no question there) and is systematically stomping on true freedom (again, no contest)
yes, the white power part is fcking stupid.
I dunno...since Ive lately begun to think of politics I think of "Social Democrat"
a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to. Symbiosis out of necessity.
pipe dream though
Im only "scared" of having the meager income I have taken from me to do horrible things. The idea of a semi-isolated property appeals to me in some ways. Being left alone, not hassled.
youre right tho...Christian Identity, W.A.R.....thats what people see as "survivalists"
there are plenty though who's only philosophy is that the current govt is out of control (no question there) and is systematically stomping on true freedom (again, no contest)
yes, the white power part is fcking stupid.
I dunno...since Ive lately begun to think of politics I think of "Social Democrat"
a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to. Symbiosis out of necessity.
pipe dream though
Message 134/147 22-May-04 @ 12:01 AM - RE:
I'm with ya 100% Influx... I was a libertarian for years, but slowly became a socialist. I know libertarians who'd shoot me for that! hehehe
I don't want the government passing laws that effect morality... but I do think that a government might be a necessary evil... a form of organized folk to prevent sh+theads from hurting people. To enforce to some degree the decency that apes refuse to gather into themselves without coaxing.
But all of that said, I'm all too aware of how those very ideas, when put into practice tend to oppress more than they free. I do not believe in forcing my ideas onto people, and too often that's what socialists do. I can't support silencing those who disagree, I can't support killing those who don't want to live the way i want to live...
I suppose I'm a big whinning bitch, because what I want is for people to do it on their own... and i know better than to expect that.
So i work to peacefuly change opinions and to arrange for what's already in the coffers to be spent on programs and people that provide for an even playing ground. Because barring an enlightened society, I think the "republic" (what Americans call Democracy) is the best realistic plan we have. Ours just needs a LOT of shaking up!!!
Hey, MCC... so are you saying that you hate the hands that feed you?
e
I don't want the government passing laws that effect morality... but I do think that a government might be a necessary evil... a form of organized folk to prevent sh+theads from hurting people. To enforce to some degree the decency that apes refuse to gather into themselves without coaxing.
But all of that said, I'm all too aware of how those very ideas, when put into practice tend to oppress more than they free. I do not believe in forcing my ideas onto people, and too often that's what socialists do. I can't support silencing those who disagree, I can't support killing those who don't want to live the way i want to live...
I suppose I'm a big whinning bitch, because what I want is for people to do it on their own... and i know better than to expect that.
So i work to peacefuly change opinions and to arrange for what's already in the coffers to be spent on programs and people that provide for an even playing ground. Because barring an enlightened society, I think the "republic" (what Americans call Democracy) is the best realistic plan we have. Ours just needs a LOT of shaking up!!!
Hey, MCC... so are you saying that you hate the hands that feed you?
e
Message 135/147 22-May-04 @ 12:45 AM - RE:
e~
let's just say pretending we're friends rarely seems to transpire
into anything meaningful...from the tradesman's end of things.
of course...it's a little a different if you're in politics. kiss. kiss.
i don't hate the hand that feeds me.
i just want to bite it occasionally.
let's just say pretending we're friends rarely seems to transpire
into anything meaningful...from the tradesman's end of things.
of course...it's a little a different if you're in politics. kiss. kiss.
i don't hate the hand that feeds me.
i just want to bite it occasionally.
Message 136/147 22-May-04 @ 04:34 PM - RE:
"a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to."
imagine the bureaucracy necessary to make such a concept viable! how about we already have that system in nature.. each individual has one voice, is nurtured by the system they nurture.. you know.. this crazy idea might actually work if we can just leave it at that w/o trying to officiate it as a governing system like the 'people all together tellnig each other what to do which is really just a front for manipulative evil maniacs but somehow even influx and cydonia cell and mcc all still think that somehow we should give it all up and be told what to do because for sooo long everyone says we need structure, how ya gonna do w/o structure? how?'
sigh, ask the fucking birds brah.
imagine the bureaucracy necessary to make such a concept viable! how about we already have that system in nature.. each individual has one voice, is nurtured by the system they nurture.. you know.. this crazy idea might actually work if we can just leave it at that w/o trying to officiate it as a governing system like the 'people all together tellnig each other what to do which is really just a front for manipulative evil maniacs but somehow even influx and cydonia cell and mcc all still think that somehow we should give it all up and be told what to do because for sooo long everyone says we need structure, how ya gonna do w/o structure? how?'
sigh, ask the fucking birds brah.
Message 137/147 22-May-04 @ 11:45 PM - RE:
There was a bird singing softly outside my window...
I woke up and looked out and it was perched there, prettily singing... and I swear's it's true, right before my eye's a farkin' squirrel lept from a tree and grabbed the bird, slammed it into the ground and kicked the sh+t out of it with his hind legs. Killed the bird right there as I woke.
I swear that's a true story, happened when I was around 12.
Not that it's meant to support anything
e
I woke up and looked out and it was perched there, prettily singing... and I swear's it's true, right before my eye's a farkin' squirrel lept from a tree and grabbed the bird, slammed it into the ground and kicked the sh+t out of it with his hind legs. Killed the bird right there as I woke.
I swear that's a true story, happened when I was around 12.
Not that it's meant to support anything
e
Message 138/147 23-May-04 @ 02:48 AM - RE:
c'mon x....birds got structure!
like they ALL wake up together....within a species at least.
there ain't one going...well...i ain't playin dat chit today.
no...they all wake up and sing and eat and fart and sing and stuff and
fart some more.....together as much as individual birds can do those things together.
you don't hear birds farting because they're birds.
now you try to lump me with influx and errata...which is cool by me
cause they be chill brah>* well...sort of except i think influx keeps his gun a little close to his side and i think e` wants to be a politican one day..
but for certain WE understand you special.
but promise!!!
NO one be callin da cops on da xoxos unless he destroy ALL mankind and then i figure the phone-lines are gone too anyways so callings a waste...yes..
so what's your special complaint here?
you wanna be leader?
in our perfect anarchist system....you top dog brah!
like they ALL wake up together....within a species at least.
there ain't one going...well...i ain't playin dat chit today.
no...they all wake up and sing and eat and fart and sing and stuff and
fart some more.....together as much as individual birds can do those things together.
you don't hear birds farting because they're birds.
now you try to lump me with influx and errata...which is cool by me
cause they be chill brah>* well...sort of except i think influx keeps his gun a little close to his side and i think e` wants to be a politican one day..
but for certain WE understand you special.
but promise!!!
NO one be callin da cops on da xoxos unless he destroy ALL mankind and then i figure the phone-lines are gone too anyways so callings a waste...yes..
so what's your special complaint here?
you wanna be leader?
in our perfect anarchist system....you top dog brah!
Message 139/147 23-May-04 @ 06:05 PM - RE:
"you wanna be leader?"
it's like nothing i ever say ever means anything to anyone, does it? go american nazi party.
it's like nothing i ever say ever means anything to anyone, does it? go american nazi party.
Message 140/147 23-May-04 @ 11:29 PM - RE:
I dont own a gun
and rurik...give me a system where there is merely cooperation and Im all for it! No coercion...GREAT!
but as of now it doesnt exist, and in a system so large some structure is absolutely necessary.
and rurik...give me a system where there is merely cooperation and Im all for it! No coercion...GREAT!
but as of now it doesnt exist, and in a system so large some structure is absolutely necessary.
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