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Forums - The lounge
Subject: "I didn't know you couldn't......"
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Original Message 1/147 28-Apr-04 @ 09:41 PM Edit: 28-Apr-04 | 09:42 PM - "I didn't know you couldn't.......
...punch POWs in the face!?!"
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
quote
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
Message 2/147 29-Apr-04 @ 02:34 AM - RE:
hell....we've only raped about a hundred of our own girls in the army.
imagine what's going on when we bust through a little exploded house and find some poor iraqi woman sitting there shaking with hate and fear.
bush says GO!!!!!
imagine what's going on when we bust through a little exploded house and find some poor iraqi woman sitting there shaking with hate and fear.
bush says GO!!!!!
Message 3/147 29-Apr-04 @ 04:21 AM - RE:
Clay, You know I love you but..........
come on. jesus christ.
come on.
come on. jesus christ.
come on.
Message 4/147 29-Apr-04 @ 05:22 AM - RE:
sorry andrew...hate to break it to you like this.
they figure there's well over a hundred reported-cases currently.
i guess that ain't bad since we got like 120,00 young bucks over there ready to rumble...rhumba etc.
they figure there's well over a hundred reported-cases currently.
i guess that ain't bad since we got like 120,00 young bucks over there ready to rumble...rhumba etc.
Message 5/147 29-Apr-04 @ 05:24 AM - RE:
just to be clear.....i'm talking us on us cases.
not us on them.
not us on them.
Message 6/147 29-Apr-04 @ 08:25 AM Edit: 29-Apr-04 | 08:26 AM - RE:
"Clay, You know I love you but..........
come on. jesus christ.
come on."
I'm curious.... what's so wrong with the logic in the premise he put forth?
seriously? what? cause you'd ask yourself WWJD and you think he wouldn't take a piece of that.... that US soldiers have the same drive and motivation to be a good, humane person? I'm sorry, but that clearly isn't the case... and I thank him for bringing this to light... cause I haven't thought of that. I remember hearing about it, but it didn't resonate with me until I considered it in the perspective he put forth.
Those are "our own people"... Americans. They fight on "our team". How hard could it be to take another person's life, when you have no remorse for taking sex from someone? I have dignitiy and respect for my fellow beings.... and its not a quantum leap of logic to imagine what someone with such a blatant lack of regard for other living beings can do to another, especially when considering that those figures aren't just some manifestation of the mind. That shit's happening there as I type....female soldiers are having their womanhood liberated, while women and children are being sniped from 300 meters.
come on. jesus christ.
come on."
I'm curious.... what's so wrong with the logic in the premise he put forth?
seriously? what? cause you'd ask yourself WWJD and you think he wouldn't take a piece of that.... that US soldiers have the same drive and motivation to be a good, humane person? I'm sorry, but that clearly isn't the case... and I thank him for bringing this to light... cause I haven't thought of that. I remember hearing about it, but it didn't resonate with me until I considered it in the perspective he put forth.
Those are "our own people"... Americans. They fight on "our team". How hard could it be to take another person's life, when you have no remorse for taking sex from someone? I have dignitiy and respect for my fellow beings.... and its not a quantum leap of logic to imagine what someone with such a blatant lack of regard for other living beings can do to another, especially when considering that those figures aren't just some manifestation of the mind. That shit's happening there as I type....female soldiers are having their womanhood liberated, while women and children are being sniped from 300 meters.
Message 7/147 29-Apr-04 @ 09:50 AM - RE:
lol... what fuggin retards... "you thought WMD's are bad? wait till you see our special unit from texas!"
Message 8/147 29-Apr-04 @ 02:43 PM - RE:
sometimes i wonder why anyone posts news here, like "we know!" but everytime, it always seems like someone doesn't know..
if you can't even count on a small group of aesthetotechnicians having an awareness, what hope the culture at large? *despair*
if you can't even count on a small group of aesthetotechnicians having an awareness, what hope the culture at large? *despair*
Message 9/147 29-Apr-04 @ 08:22 PM - RE:
It's just blind negativity towards the US. Well not even towards the US, our young men and women fighting in a different country. Don't you think that statement is just a little out of line?
Yeah, I do also know a few of them. They are great people and the fact that you can make such a generalized statement is insulting, in my opinion at least.
Yeah, I do also know a few of them. They are great people and the fact that you can make such a generalized statement is insulting, in my opinion at least.
Message 12/147 29-Apr-04 @ 09:04 PM - RE:
"It's just blind negativity towards the US. Well not even towards the US, our young men and women fighting in a different country. Don't you think that statement is just a little out of line?
Yeah, I do also know a few of them. They are great people and the fact that you can make such a generalized statement is insulting, in my opinion at least."
what exactly qualifies any of the statments made as "blind negativity" towards US soldiers?
Yeah, I do also know a few of them. They are great people and the fact that you can make such a generalized statement is insulting, in my opinion at least."
what exactly qualifies any of the statments made as "blind negativity" towards US soldiers?
Message 13/147 29-Apr-04 @ 10:10 PM - RE:
Shit, I give up with you guys. You win-
The US is an empire of evil, seeking destruction, resource consumption, and everybody's favorite: rape!
The 120,000 US troops stationed in Iraq are terrible people. The only reason why they are there is to get some sand-pussy and kill people for sport.
And finally just to clarify what was said above (I'm not making any more new points, I'm sick of dancetech political rallies)---
Its blind negativity. Stating a statistic then relating it to something that "could have happened" is bullshit. It didnt and until I hear about it, you're both wrong.
The US is an empire of evil, seeking destruction, resource consumption, and everybody's favorite: rape!
The 120,000 US troops stationed in Iraq are terrible people. The only reason why they are there is to get some sand-pussy and kill people for sport.
And finally just to clarify what was said above (I'm not making any more new points, I'm sick of dancetech political rallies)---
Its blind negativity. Stating a statistic then relating it to something that "could have happened" is bullshit. It didnt and until I hear about it, you're both wrong.
Message 14/147 29-Apr-04 @ 10:35 PM - RE:
hmm... okay grumpy!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1157344,00.html
US soldiers accused of raping 100 colleagues
Julian Borger in Washington
Friday February 27, 2004
The Guardian
The Pentagon has ordered an urgent inquiry into reports that more than 100 American women deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan have been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow soldiers, it emerged yesterday.
There have been 112 cases of sexual assault on women soldiers in units under central command, which oversees operations in the Middle East and central Asia, during the past 18 months. Meanwhile more than 20 women at an air force training base in Texas have told a local crisis centre they were assaulted in 2002.
If only half of the cases are confirmed it will be the worst rape scandal the US military has faced in nearly a decade.
how's that for justification of one's position?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1157344,00.html
US soldiers accused of raping 100 colleagues
Julian Borger in Washington
Friday February 27, 2004
The Guardian
The Pentagon has ordered an urgent inquiry into reports that more than 100 American women deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan have been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow soldiers, it emerged yesterday.
There have been 112 cases of sexual assault on women soldiers in units under central command, which oversees operations in the Middle East and central Asia, during the past 18 months. Meanwhile more than 20 women at an air force training base in Texas have told a local crisis centre they were assaulted in 2002.
If only half of the cases are confirmed it will be the worst rape scandal the US military has faced in nearly a decade.
how's that for justification of one's position?
Message 15/147 30-Apr-04 @ 03:54 AM - RE:
dear andrew~~you suggest that your own positivism isn't somewhat blind in itself?
i mean for your age....you sure seem to act like you've even been around a block once.
and we know this just ain't so.
don't take it personally but explore and research more......spout less.
learn more.
i mean for your age....you sure seem to act like you've even been around a block once.
and we know this just ain't so.
don't take it personally but explore and research more......spout less.
learn more.
Message 16/147 30-Apr-04 @ 05:28 AM - RE:
D-
First off...was the US even in iraq in 2002?
And secondly, those statistics do not say anything about US soldiers raping iraqi women, what I asked for in the first place.
First off...was the US even in iraq in 2002?
And secondly, those statistics do not say anything about US soldiers raping iraqi women, what I asked for in the first place.
Message 17/147 30-Apr-04 @ 05:58 AM - RE:
technically, the US has been deep within Iraq since 1972. but I don't think that's what you meant.
and I'm not sure that you ever clearly stated that you thought either of us are implying that US soldiers are raping Iraqi women....
I know that I made a very clear distinction between US/US rape and the the state of mind of one who could do such things and think nothing of killing someone who isn't even american... I mean since "patriotism" is all the rage.
In addition, it clearly states in that article from the Guardian that those 100 rapes occured in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you don't agree, then fine.. don't agree. your myopic postion holds water like a colander.
and I'm not sure that you ever clearly stated that you thought either of us are implying that US soldiers are raping Iraqi women....
I know that I made a very clear distinction between US/US rape and the the state of mind of one who could do such things and think nothing of killing someone who isn't even american... I mean since "patriotism" is all the rage.
In addition, it clearly states in that article from the Guardian that those 100 rapes occured in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you don't agree, then fine.. don't agree. your myopic postion holds water like a colander.
Message 18/147 30-Apr-04 @ 12:45 PM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
It's traditional in most, if not all, armies isn't it?
Rape, Pillage, Loot, Murder etc etc
I hate to say I told you so, but I'm going to anyways..
'Good people' ?
Rape, Pillage, Loot, Murder etc etc
I hate to say I told you so, but I'm going to anyways..
'Good people' ?
Message 19/147 30-Apr-04 @ 01:33 PM - RE:
Wakey wakey, asking why soldiers commit these attrocities when they are trained not to think and paid to kill and die is as naive as being surpised by the state of a world who's most morally flexible members are the authors of our law
Message 20/147 30-Apr-04 @ 02:17 PM - RE:
"asking why soldiers commit these attrocities when they are trained not to think and paid to kill and die is as naive as being surpised by the state of a world who's most morally flexible members are the authors of our law"
nicely put.
nicely put.
Message 21/147 30-Apr-04 @ 02:32 PM - RE:
and like the guy...chip what's-his-name that was responsible for many ill-behaviors towards iraqi prisoners in saddam's prison (of recent publ;icized photos)
....his day-job in the states is prison-guard.
he said they had no training and had no idea what the rules were.
i'm guessing he'll get to come back home and keep an eye on our own again.
that's sweet.
....his day-job in the states is prison-guard.
he said they had no training and had no idea what the rules were.
i'm guessing he'll get to come back home and keep an eye on our own again.
that's sweet.
Message 22/147 30-Apr-04 @ 03:20 PM - RE:
this all normal for war tho surely... ? - whatever people like to think, there's no rules in war.
makes me laugh tho that a guy being stood on a box for psycholoical interrogation is deemed more worthy of an outcry that the blowing to smithereens of thousands of children and other civilians.
The Brit's were doing that shit in Ireland for years (and worse) and so does everyone else, but many of these banana places carry it thru for real.... no fake psychological stuff, but REAL aweful torture
The fake stuff is like, y'know - fake stuff playing on the mind, like you dissorientate the prisoner for an hour or so, have him bent over a desk with his hands tied behind leaning on his head, while being verbaly hammered for an hour or so... Then have him then held upright so he cant move by a few guys while an aggressive 'player' brandishes a knife in his face & threatens him...
The 'knife player' then walks behind the prisoner all the while shoting and threatening with the knife, and then when he's behind the prisoner and can't be seen he draws long 'cuts' down the prisoners back with a shard of broken ice - the prisoner feels the 'hot' cut of the shard of ice being dragged down his back, feels the water dribbling down from it and assumes he's being cut...
stuff like that. - that's pretty much what 'the man on the box' is about - the fear of the unknown what is supposed to happen in his mind.
I mean they COULD have electrocuted him for real or any other number of aweful things.
I think killing civilians is worse myself. after all, they aint shooting at you.
makes me laugh tho that a guy being stood on a box for psycholoical interrogation is deemed more worthy of an outcry that the blowing to smithereens of thousands of children and other civilians.
The Brit's were doing that shit in Ireland for years (and worse) and so does everyone else, but many of these banana places carry it thru for real.... no fake psychological stuff, but REAL aweful torture
The fake stuff is like, y'know - fake stuff playing on the mind, like you dissorientate the prisoner for an hour or so, have him bent over a desk with his hands tied behind leaning on his head, while being verbaly hammered for an hour or so... Then have him then held upright so he cant move by a few guys while an aggressive 'player' brandishes a knife in his face & threatens him...
The 'knife player' then walks behind the prisoner all the while shoting and threatening with the knife, and then when he's behind the prisoner and can't be seen he draws long 'cuts' down the prisoners back with a shard of broken ice - the prisoner feels the 'hot' cut of the shard of ice being dragged down his back, feels the water dribbling down from it and assumes he's being cut...
stuff like that. - that's pretty much what 'the man on the box' is about - the fear of the unknown what is supposed to happen in his mind.
I mean they COULD have electrocuted him for real or any other number of aweful things.
I think killing civilians is worse myself. after all, they aint shooting at you.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 23/147 30-Apr-04 @ 03:52 PM - RE:
i found what was truly horrible about people like John Macarthy's ordeal was that due to being made to wear blinfolds whenever the guards came in they could never see a potential kicking coming.....
not being able to see and trying to work out whether its an interrigation or food and water time and then WACK! A hammer comes down on your foot and the beatings start.....
truly horrible psycholgical torture.....
greg
oh the most impressive psyc torture i read about (in fiction of course) was a russian idea to completely starve the victims of sensorary stimulation....sending them crazy after a while....
not being able to see and trying to work out whether its an interrigation or food and water time and then WACK! A hammer comes down on your foot and the beatings start.....
truly horrible psycholgical torture.....
greg
oh the most impressive psyc torture i read about (in fiction of course) was a russian idea to completely starve the victims of sensorary stimulation....sending them crazy after a while....
Message 24/147 30-Apr-04 @ 05:08 PM - RE:
"The 120,000 US troops stationed in Iraq are terrible people. The only reason why they are there is to get some sand-pussy and kill people for sport."
you say that like there's really a good reason??
oh wait - maybe you meant a good reason as in why someone joins the armed forces? to defend u.s. hamlets from the marauding iraqi hordes?
and what's this thing with iraqis anyway? is that anyone who isn't an american who is there? what if they're more a lollipop maker and not an iraqi?
you say that like there's really a good reason??
oh wait - maybe you meant a good reason as in why someone joins the armed forces? to defend u.s. hamlets from the marauding iraqi hordes?
and what's this thing with iraqis anyway? is that anyone who isn't an american who is there? what if they're more a lollipop maker and not an iraqi?
Message 25/147 30-Apr-04 @ 07:21 PM - RE:
"Wakey wakey, asking why soldiers commit these attrocities when they are trained not to think and paid to kill and die is as naive as being surpised by the state of a world who's most morally flexible members are the authors of our law "
ok, I see, cheds... you just save it all up for one big incredibly poignant moment of clarity once every... 6 months? ;) Nice one...
ok, I see, cheds... you just save it all up for one big incredibly poignant moment of clarity once every... 6 months? ;) Nice one...
Message 26/147 30-Apr-04 @ 07:57 PM - RE:
k......i'm certainly not making a distinction between the so-called horrors perpetrated on these prisoners....any more than what our bombs are doing to nameless, faceless, and countless iraqis....women and children never to the exclusion.
our bombs dropped from overhead mutilate.
rocket mortars mutilate and incinerate.
blowing heads off and burning flesh just like everything else.
what mutilation occurred to those contractors is really no different than what we've done to fallujah....only we've outdone them easily a hundred times and we do it from a safer distance to minimize our own losses.
the prison-photos show only what goes on when we're having a little fun.
our bombs dropped from overhead mutilate.
rocket mortars mutilate and incinerate.
blowing heads off and burning flesh just like everything else.
what mutilation occurred to those contractors is really no different than what we've done to fallujah....only we've outdone them easily a hundred times and we do it from a safer distance to minimize our own losses.
the prison-photos show only what goes on when we're having a little fun.
Message 27/147 30-Apr-04 @ 08:49 PM - RE:
"what mutilation occurred to those contractors is really no different than what we've done to fallujah...."
contractors? lets use terminology that's a bit more accurate shall we? Mercenaries!
they worked for Blackwater.... they train killers.
contractors? lets use terminology that's a bit more accurate shall we? Mercenaries!
they worked for Blackwater.... they train killers.
Message 28/147 30-Apr-04 @ 10:37 PM - RE:
holy shit. is that what they were?
anyway...cheddar...clap clap
andrew...wow, man. your faith in the "system," based on your relationships with one, two, five people...?
soldiers, to me = JOCKS. nothing more, nothing less. More often than not. Sure there are thinkers amongst them, but...
HOO RAH! KILL THEM SAND NIGGERS!
you tell me that isnt the common fcking attitude?
as for torture...well...I'll tell you what:
theyre gonna prosecute that handful of folks as a way of saying "see? we're in control, and we're doing what's "right" over there!"
meanwhile thousands of innocents die in haphazard, whimsical shootouts
many of those innocents are US soldiers, doing what theyre told.
grrrrr
anyway...cheddar...clap clap
andrew...wow, man. your faith in the "system," based on your relationships with one, two, five people...?
soldiers, to me = JOCKS. nothing more, nothing less. More often than not. Sure there are thinkers amongst them, but...
HOO RAH! KILL THEM SAND NIGGERS!
you tell me that isnt the common fcking attitude?
as for torture...well...I'll tell you what:
theyre gonna prosecute that handful of folks as a way of saying "see? we're in control, and we're doing what's "right" over there!"
meanwhile thousands of innocents die in haphazard, whimsical shootouts
many of those innocents are US soldiers, doing what theyre told.
grrrrr
Message 29/147 01-May-04 @ 08:05 AM Edit: 01-May-04 | 08:06 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: [image]
[image file]
The coalition brings democracy and freedom to the Iraqis...
Message 30/147 01-May-04 @ 08:07 AM Edit: 01-May-04 | 08:08 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: [image]
[image file]
They look like good people to me...
Message 31/147 01-May-04 @ 10:04 AM - RE:
oh.... you brits should be the ones to "take the piss"
"A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating."
"A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating."
Message 32/147 01-May-04 @ 10:05 AM - RE:
Message 33/147 01-May-04 @ 11:20 AM Edit: 01-May-04 | 12:37 PM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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yeah I couldn't find the piccy...
Makes you proud to be a member of a free, just, democratic society engaged in 'liberating' those poor people from an unjust and brutal regime doesn't it...
Still, at least the Haliburton shareholders will get a good return...
Makes you proud to be a member of a free, just, democratic society engaged in 'liberating' those poor people from an unjust and brutal regime doesn't it...
Still, at least the Haliburton shareholders will get a good return...
Message 34/147 01-May-04 @ 12:38 PM - RE:
ah well... it's wierd how the public is ok with stuff as long as they dont see it - why dont they show some people blasted by bombings into shreds - it's odd how this distinction is made between ripping people to shreds for 'war' and doing such and such when not 'in combat' as being 'ok with the rules'
that guy on the box looks like he's auditioning for a local KKK production of 'The Temptation of Christ'
that guy on the box looks like he's auditioning for a local KKK production of 'The Temptation of Christ'
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 35/147 01-May-04 @ 06:17 PM - RE:
..and after yet another thread like this, people are sitll gonig to be telling me to 'settle down, you're too paranoid, just relax and laugh at life..'
and then they get all uppity when i call them moron nazi robots from the hell that is civilisation.
i fucking could fucking slap fucking those fucking bastards fucking silly fucking when fucking they fucking say fucking that.
could someone write a plug-in what automatically inserts declarations of indignance for me?
ho ho fucking ho i'll show a motherfucker
and then they get all uppity when i call them moron nazi robots from the hell that is civilisation.
i fucking could fucking slap fucking those fucking bastards fucking silly fucking when fucking they fucking say fucking that.
could someone write a plug-in what automatically inserts declarations of indignance for me?
ho ho fucking ho i'll show a motherfucker
Message 36/147 01-May-04 @ 07:38 PM - RE:
It's cute how the proof is displayed and BS can't come back to see it... the world's a fuggin' ugly place, kid. Even good people act horribly in horrible circumstances...
and
ABUSE OF POWER COMES AS NO SURPRISE
Last night I watched FOX news (I never do that!!) and was horrified at the bent of the reporting (another thread)... but I heard a quote that Bush made the other day defending the "Mission Accomplished" speech on that aircrafted carrier last year when he declared the war over in Iraq...
just the other day he said, "The Mission HAS BEEN accomplished. Saddam is out of power. There are no torture chambers, mass graves or death squads in Iraq!" And I thought, the guy in the hood on a box looked like he was in a torture chamber to me.
Same sh+t different assholes? Sure,
And, yes... what we have in the US is on the backs of others the world over! We do indeed manipulate weaker peoples to defend our freedom to acquire luxuries. And we do invade other countries to secure our own power and decadence. If you don't see that you don't look beyond the scope of your own suburban neighborhood!
Slavery is alive and well... and we Americans live fat on the produce of it's suffering.
e
and
ABUSE OF POWER COMES AS NO SURPRISE
Last night I watched FOX news (I never do that!!) and was horrified at the bent of the reporting (another thread)... but I heard a quote that Bush made the other day defending the "Mission Accomplished" speech on that aircrafted carrier last year when he declared the war over in Iraq...
just the other day he said, "The Mission HAS BEEN accomplished. Saddam is out of power. There are no torture chambers, mass graves or death squads in Iraq!" And I thought, the guy in the hood on a box looked like he was in a torture chamber to me.
Same sh+t different assholes? Sure,
And, yes... what we have in the US is on the backs of others the world over! We do indeed manipulate weaker peoples to defend our freedom to acquire luxuries. And we do invade other countries to secure our own power and decadence. If you don't see that you don't look beyond the scope of your own suburban neighborhood!
Slavery is alive and well... and we Americans live fat on the produce of it's suffering.
e
Message 37/147 01-May-04 @ 08:08 PM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
The only thing that is ever going to change this is the lifting of ignorance...
otherwise we have a planetful of people who believe some crap in the bible or the koran or the talmud and think that 'right' is on their side..
We need to educate people to a point where they have a clue... intellectually and spiritually.. and that ain't gonna happen overnight is it..
It's not the fault of the US or the UK or France or Saddam, I guess we have this 'them and us' thing built into our genes... Us good, Them bad..., Territoriality, Aggression.. no doubt it makes evolutionary sense up to a point.. sad but true I think..
Is there hope?
Probably not in my lifetime or my children's lifetime... we are just built that way... built to accept the crap that is fed to us by ignorant fools like bush and blair... full of ego shit... lust for power, fear of death...
and the world weeps... and the mother's weep and anyhone with a sense of the value of human life weeps... and saddam and bush et al play out their pathetic little dramas on the world stage...
otherwise we have a planetful of people who believe some crap in the bible or the koran or the talmud and think that 'right' is on their side..
We need to educate people to a point where they have a clue... intellectually and spiritually.. and that ain't gonna happen overnight is it..
It's not the fault of the US or the UK or France or Saddam, I guess we have this 'them and us' thing built into our genes... Us good, Them bad..., Territoriality, Aggression.. no doubt it makes evolutionary sense up to a point.. sad but true I think..
Is there hope?
Probably not in my lifetime or my children's lifetime... we are just built that way... built to accept the crap that is fed to us by ignorant fools like bush and blair... full of ego shit... lust for power, fear of death...
and the world weeps... and the mother's weep and anyhone with a sense of the value of human life weeps... and saddam and bush et al play out their pathetic little dramas on the world stage...
Message 38/147 01-May-04 @ 10:27 PM - RE:
No I am back to see it. To be honest with you I do learn alot through dancetech, in my young age. But there are a few things that have pissed me off in this thread.
xoxos- that was sarcasm.
As for the torture pics, surely just like the 5 people I know who could be good people, those 5 in the pictures can't be few out of the crew in your way innit?
I was talking to my father today about this..I'm regurgitating to you what he said (well what I remember of it, as we were on our way to dropping me off for the SATs today), and I think its absolutley correct. (Note he's a retardedly right wing conservative)
We were in the car, driving down to the $20,000-a-year school that chelsea (the white house dog) clinton went to. Funny isnt it- I thought clinton was so for sending kids to public schools? Why wouldn't he send his own daughter to one? Hmmm. Also, John Kerry lives less than a block away from my house. His cars appropriately are 2 denalis (which get GREAT gas mileage I bet)
(sorry I felt like giving a bit of the conservative jokes/democrat ironies that my father feels its his duty to regurgitate every time we hop into a car together)
ANYHOW, we were driving and that stuff..and I popped him the question- "What is going on with the Iraqi torturing stuff?" As simple as I could be.
He went on for 15 minutes. Listing names apon names of people he'd remove from position, throw in jail, and court marshal for doing all that shit. He'd basically remove everyone from ground up, because this is the kind of shit that happens when you leave a bunch of "ya-hoo-kids" in the middle of no where without proper supervision.
Then I quote his exact words: "The situation could not get worse. Something has to be done, immediately"
And this is coming from an ultra conservative pentagon freak.
So...basically point of my post was just to let you folks know that shit is going to be done, severe shit..even the most conservative of people think that it was just out of line.
xoxos- that was sarcasm.
As for the torture pics, surely just like the 5 people I know who could be good people, those 5 in the pictures can't be few out of the crew in your way innit?
I was talking to my father today about this..I'm regurgitating to you what he said (well what I remember of it, as we were on our way to dropping me off for the SATs today), and I think its absolutley correct. (Note he's a retardedly right wing conservative)
We were in the car, driving down to the $20,000-a-year school that chelsea (the white house dog) clinton went to. Funny isnt it- I thought clinton was so for sending kids to public schools? Why wouldn't he send his own daughter to one? Hmmm. Also, John Kerry lives less than a block away from my house. His cars appropriately are 2 denalis (which get GREAT gas mileage I bet)
(sorry I felt like giving a bit of the conservative jokes/democrat ironies that my father feels its his duty to regurgitate every time we hop into a car together)
ANYHOW, we were driving and that stuff..and I popped him the question- "What is going on with the Iraqi torturing stuff?" As simple as I could be.
He went on for 15 minutes. Listing names apon names of people he'd remove from position, throw in jail, and court marshal for doing all that shit. He'd basically remove everyone from ground up, because this is the kind of shit that happens when you leave a bunch of "ya-hoo-kids" in the middle of no where without proper supervision.
Then I quote his exact words: "The situation could not get worse. Something has to be done, immediately"
And this is coming from an ultra conservative pentagon freak.
So...basically point of my post was just to let you folks know that shit is going to be done, severe shit..even the most conservative of people think that it was just out of line.
Message 40/147 01-May-04 @ 11:03 PM - RE:
he was the chairman of the army science board for 4 years. now he's on both defence science boards and army science boards. ... hmmm
he's a consultant for a bunch of big companies like martin marietta (sp lol) and CACI...kinda like a F-22 salesman :P
he does a bunch more shit, some classified etc. They want him to be secretary of the army or take over the iraqi security situation but he doesnt want to- he doesnt feel like its the job for him.
he's a consultant for a bunch of big companies like martin marietta (sp lol) and CACI...kinda like a F-22 salesman :P
he does a bunch more shit, some classified etc. They want him to be secretary of the army or take over the iraqi security situation but he doesnt want to- he doesnt feel like its the job for him.
Message 41/147 02-May-04 @ 12:42 AM - RE:
plus he's got a wife and 2 sons at home and he'll get killed in iraq.
it's absolutely not the job he wants.
he was right when he said it can't get worse....
but he forgot to add it will never get better with the US in charge.
never.
iraq belongs to iraq.
we've removed saddam. now let them have their country back to see if they might ever sort it out.
ooooppps...forgot one thing.
iraq is second largest oil-reserve in the world and bush is an oil-man.
nevermind.
it's absolutely not the job he wants.
he was right when he said it can't get worse....
but he forgot to add it will never get better with the US in charge.
never.
iraq belongs to iraq.
we've removed saddam. now let them have their country back to see if they might ever sort it out.
ooooppps...forgot one thing.
iraq is second largest oil-reserve in the world and bush is an oil-man.
nevermind.
Message 42/147 02-May-04 @ 02:04 AM - RE:
It could get worse and it will especially for the 'murkins.
Message 43/147 02-May-04 @ 05:28 AM - RE:
Hey Clay-
I asked him about that. He said it would turn into hell if we left the country right now. Many people in authority are tempted to say "you know what, fine we'll go out and you guys can see what happens"
typical of democrats, they'd make us leave, then bitch about it when it gets worse. But one thing I even in my youth can assure you: It would get worse if we left the country in the position it is now.
If we don't finish the job we attempted to start, I think it would be absolutley foolish. Even if you (not just you, talking to everyone reading) think we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started.
Security is such a huge problem in iraq now...it would turn into rival parties fighting over power if they weren't told who's who. Then another sadaam would buy/kill his way to the top, and boom we're fucked when one of the bush daughters comes in 8 years to become the first woman president. The never ending bush/iraq cycle! Part 3!
I asked him about that. He said it would turn into hell if we left the country right now. Many people in authority are tempted to say "you know what, fine we'll go out and you guys can see what happens"
typical of democrats, they'd make us leave, then bitch about it when it gets worse. But one thing I even in my youth can assure you: It would get worse if we left the country in the position it is now.
If we don't finish the job we attempted to start, I think it would be absolutley foolish. Even if you (not just you, talking to everyone reading) think we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started.
Security is such a huge problem in iraq now...it would turn into rival parties fighting over power if they weren't told who's who. Then another sadaam would buy/kill his way to the top, and boom we're fucked when one of the bush daughters comes in 8 years to become the first woman president.
The never ending bush/iraq cycle! Part 3!
Message 44/147 02-May-04 @ 07:08 AM - RE:
you have a point that i'm going to respectfully disagree with andrew.
there is a good chance that iraqis may still have a bloodthirst sufficient enough to devastate themselves after we leave....but i'll assure it is nothing like their hatred for us. and as long as we enforce our will upon them, the longer we delay them from forging their own destiny.....which is simply a must.
do remember that viet nam took 15 years before we "finally got it" and left.
the vietnamese had to sort out their own differences....and they did.
and don't forget pops has some stake in making sure these wheels of war keep grinding since.....those he consults for...advises...and whatever...are in the business of such enetrprises and endeavors.
those corporations andrew...are at the root of what's happening in
be weary as to their claims of being for the general good of mankind etc.
from my viewpoint.....t just ain't so.
but try to remain aware...keep asking questions....and attempt to arrive at your own conclusions.
there is a good chance that iraqis may still have a bloodthirst sufficient enough to devastate themselves after we leave....but i'll assure it is nothing like their hatred for us. and as long as we enforce our will upon them, the longer we delay them from forging their own destiny.....which is simply a must.
do remember that viet nam took 15 years before we "finally got it" and left.
the vietnamese had to sort out their own differences....and they did.
and don't forget pops has some stake in making sure these wheels of war keep grinding since.....those he consults for...advises...and whatever...are in the business of such enetrprises and endeavors.
those corporations andrew...are at the root of what's happening in
be weary as to their claims of being for the general good of mankind etc.
from my viewpoint.....t just ain't so.
but try to remain aware...keep asking questions....and attempt to arrive at your own conclusions.
Message 45/147 02-May-04 @ 07:49 AM Edit: 02-May-04 | 07:57 AM - RE:
Message 46/147 02-May-04 @ 10:30 AM - RE:
the thing with Iraq is that west (britain, then the us) couldnt get it under their control for about hundred years now, so why would it work now? especially since there are no candidates for a puppet goverment anywhere in sight... how stupid is that :P
Message 47/147 02-May-04 @ 10:31 AM - RE:
"It's not the fault of the US or the UK or France or Saddam, I guess we have this 'them and us' thing built into our genes... Us good, Them bad..., Territoriality, Aggression.. no doubt it makes evolutionary sense up to a point.. sad but true I think.."
i think the veneer of civilization is forming a scab over our old animal selves, making us think that immersion in society and technology have changed us in any way. This isn't just false its bad for us. Without getting into old arguments we are animals, thats all, we respond to stimuli, the environment may be different (we collect money not nuts) but the behaviour is the same.
"Is there hope?"
3 ideas Z. 1) I was surpised to find that I had always thought chaos and anarchy the same, but i found out recently that it isn't. I wonder why I was always taught that?. 2) If something is making you unhappy, perhaps it is not the thing that makes you unhappy but unhappy finding that thing to be with 3) is it me getting older or is the world is getting worse. 4) if Bush etal are untouchable (through their money and power) and continue to expand the %age of the (global) population deeply offended and frightened by their actions, how can the people obtain justice if the law cannot.
Personally I think not (but i have children so I cant think that) but anyway its about time the planet moved on to the next species made in his image,
" it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started. "
To finish something you need to be doing something to finish. OK Saddam is out but was it ever that? but it's going to mean someone with a lot of power and money says something like "These people cannot be allowed to control all that oil and now we control them" until then we are going to have wars of words and electorate polls ad nauseam.
Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven
i think the veneer of civilization is forming a scab over our old animal selves, making us think that immersion in society and technology have changed us in any way. This isn't just false its bad for us. Without getting into old arguments we are animals, thats all, we respond to stimuli, the environment may be different (we collect money not nuts) but the behaviour is the same.
"Is there hope?"
3 ideas Z. 1) I was surpised to find that I had always thought chaos and anarchy the same, but i found out recently that it isn't. I wonder why I was always taught that?. 2) If something is making you unhappy, perhaps it is not the thing that makes you unhappy but unhappy finding that thing to be with 3) is it me getting older or is the world is getting worse. 4) if Bush etal are untouchable (through their money and power) and continue to expand the %age of the (global) population deeply offended and frightened by their actions, how can the people obtain justice if the law cannot.
Personally I think not (but i have children so I cant think that) but anyway its about time the planet moved on to the next species made in his image,
" it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started. "
To finish something you need to be doing something to finish. OK Saddam is out but was it ever that? but it's going to mean someone with a lot of power and money says something like "These people cannot be allowed to control all that oil and now we control them" until then we are going to have wars of words and electorate polls ad nauseam.
Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven
Message 48/147 02-May-04 @ 10:52 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
'Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven'
Just read George Orwell's 1984.. those guys have... 2004?
heh
;)
Just read George Orwell's 1984.. those guys have... 2004?
heh
;)
Message 49/147 02-May-04 @ 02:31 PM - RE:
One of the first few pages on google- I had heard this on the news too.
Maybe if it wasnt ever the reason why we went there....maybe just a chance we did a really really good thing here? And even better if we give the government some time to fix some things they ed up in the process?
Might be my retardedly optomisic output, but shit I think they need some props for taking him out.
Maybe if it wasnt ever the reason why we went there....maybe just a chance we did a really really good thing here? And even better if we give the government some time to fix some things they ed up in the process?
Might be my retardedly optomisic output, but shit I think they need some props for taking him out.
Message 50/147 02-May-04 @ 03:44 PM - RE:
andrew....the fact is saddam wouldn't have been man-in-charge in iraq without our blessing.
we basically put him in (knowing he was a murderous thug -- but he was OUR thug).
it was kind of our responsibility to take him out but this had little to do with the iraqi people and everything to do with the fact saddam quit bowing to our lead and asking permission to continue his agenda.
kuwait was the big thumbing-of-the-nose at bush-senior which forever
the-boy-george would vow revenge.
it's important not repeat the same mistake by trying to determine iraq's future to benfit our own national agenda.
as for info....i'm not going to say you should like michael moore but he is a brave and,
in my opinion, necessary voice for justice in a world which seems to be moving away from it.
he includes links to a number of news & opinion organizations which i feel you might benefit from exploring. TARGET=NEW>web-link
you have every right to say everyone who criticizes bush and his cronies are full-of-it but i think it's only fair and just that you hear that side in as open a manner
as possible....if fairness and justice is something important to you.
which i think it is and the reason why i'll try to be respectful as possible when presenting any view which might counter yours.
you...young man...are important to the future of our planet and this nation which requires a conscience if it is to steer humankind into the future in any way that doesn't prove to be totally disastrous for all.
fyi...i do check the more conscious and level-headed conservative sites for their viewpoints fairly regularly....in my attempts toward also understanding all sides
in these crucial arguments.
we basically put him in (knowing he was a murderous thug -- but he was OUR thug).
it was kind of our responsibility to take him out but this had little to do with the iraqi people and everything to do with the fact saddam quit bowing to our lead and asking permission to continue his agenda.
kuwait was the big thumbing-of-the-nose at bush-senior which forever
the-boy-george would vow revenge.
it's important not repeat the same mistake by trying to determine iraq's future to benfit our own national agenda.
as for info....i'm not going to say you should like michael moore but he is a brave and,
in my opinion, necessary voice for justice in a world which seems to be moving away from it.
he includes links to a number of news & opinion organizations which i feel you might benefit from exploring. TARGET=NEW>web-link
you have every right to say everyone who criticizes bush and his cronies are full-of-it but i think it's only fair and just that you hear that side in as open a manner
as possible....if fairness and justice is something important to you.
which i think it is and the reason why i'll try to be respectful as possible when presenting any view which might counter yours.
you...young man...are important to the future of our planet and this nation which requires a conscience if it is to steer humankind into the future in any way that doesn't prove to be totally disastrous for all.
fyi...i do check the more conscious and level-headed conservative sites for their viewpoints fairly regularly....in my attempts toward also understanding all sides
in these crucial arguments.
Message 51/147 02-May-04 @ 04:39 PM - RE:
web-link
this article is the most comprehensive and detailed explanation of what actually occurred with those prisoner abuses as investigated by a us army general. names of those guilty of wrongdoing and the private-companies involved in the determining of the environment as the us government wages it's humanitarian battle against a people we claim to be liberating.
most definitely check this.
biggest question becomes what are these private-companies doing handling a us military war on foreign soil if it ain't about the money?
this article is the most comprehensive and detailed explanation of what actually occurred with those prisoner abuses as investigated by a us army general. names of those guilty of wrongdoing and the private-companies involved in the determining of the environment as the us government wages it's humanitarian battle against a people we claim to be liberating.
most definitely check this.
biggest question becomes what are these private-companies doing handling a us military war on foreign soil if it ain't about the money?
Message 52/147 02-May-04 @ 05:07 PM - RE:
Thanks for the info clay, but I will refuse anything from michael more. That FAT worthless sloppy cunt faced twat ring of a sloppy bitch that he is.
Clay, you know how i am about celebrities who think its their right to use their status to boost their political point of view. I thought we went over this before
Clay, you know how i am about celebrities who think its their right to use their status to boost their political point of view. I thought we went over this before
Message 53/147 02-May-04 @ 05:59 PM - RE:
conservative dad says "it could not be worse" - well, now, with it all out he says that.. what would he say given only the potential for misdeeds instead of the proof.. "don't worry, son, someday all this will be yours.."
"It's cute how the proof is displayed and BS can't come back to see it..." the world makes a lot more sense from "this" perspective, you see - eg. you ever hear that lsd makes people freak out from the government? i've seen ~1,000 people ingest lsd and the ones that freak out are the ones form whom dogma conflicts with reality, eg. christians. no wonder they freak out when everythnig that is real conflicts with the 'truths' that they've built their entire life on.. and still, every time drugs are mentioned, all the straights are like "you'll freak out.."
"Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control" - under your sink - you just see one cockroach, but there are thousands! (show picture of snaggle-toothed roach with eyes pointing in different directions and bad acne and a retainer for good measure) kill them now! kill now! for ultimate perfection! you know what that is cos we tell you.
truth will take many lifetimes? naah - you need to dump a couple of industrial tankers worth of salvia concentrate in the water supply, and i guarantee you, bitches will 'recognise' :p salvia is the shit for brain work.
"It's cute how the proof is displayed and BS can't come back to see it..." the world makes a lot more sense from "this" perspective, you see - eg. you ever hear that lsd makes people freak out from the government? i've seen ~1,000 people ingest lsd and the ones that freak out are the ones form whom dogma conflicts with reality, eg. christians. no wonder they freak out when everythnig that is real conflicts with the 'truths' that they've built their entire life on.. and still, every time drugs are mentioned, all the straights are like "you'll freak out.."
"Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control" - under your sink - you just see one cockroach, but there are thousands! (show picture of snaggle-toothed roach with eyes pointing in different directions and bad acne and a retainer for good measure) kill them now! kill now! for ultimate perfection! you know what that is cos we tell you.
truth will take many lifetimes? naah - you need to dump a couple of industrial tankers worth of salvia concentrate in the water supply, and i guarantee you, bitches will 'recognise' :p salvia is the shit for brain work.
Message 55/147 02-May-04 @ 07:06 PM - RE:
BS, you dont have a clue man, I dont have a clue, nobody has a fkn clue, thats the point, why can't we just accept that other people get up to shit we dont and move on, why do we have to waste our too much free time thinking up offence (when its really a doodoo in our own karma) and messing with other peoples lives. Topiary hurts the tree
so those who want to govern are least qualified you say, or being in charge is something you learn in the cradle
Clay your such a dad, i would tell him about the fifty layers of swaddling around his life and how I am jealous cos i only got 30. Strange that as you get older life seems more real, probably some accretion thing.
so those who want to govern are least qualified you say, or being in charge is something you learn in the cradle
Clay your such a dad, i would tell him about the fifty layers of swaddling around his life and how I am jealous cos i only got 30. Strange that as you get older life seems more real, probably some accretion thing.
Message 56/147 02-May-04 @ 10:20 PM - RE:
them photos look like some sorta f*ckin frat initiation to me
Message 57/147 02-May-04 @ 10:33 PM - RE:
andrew...please don't smile at me when you spew your brown-shirt drum-beat.... please.
and i swear i'll no longer pretend i have anything to offer you.
mcc>
and i swear i'll no longer pretend i have anything to offer you.
mcc>
Message 58/147 02-May-04 @ 11:38 PM - RE:
Clay, that was intended to be light hearted. I don't understand why when I insult celebrities you like, you PMS about it like they're your best friends.
Anyone who uses their fame/status to further a political idea is a piece of shit. Their ideas weigh just as much as anyone else's do, but they feel they need special attention (about their political ideas/views) because they have more money than you. Why doesn't that piss you off?
If bruce willis got an oscar and spouted off shit about how no one should elect john kerry, i'd shit in a box and fed ex it to him and demi. Its not his views i'm insulting, its his attitude and im not going to listen to anything a sloppy egotistical fuck has to say about...well anything.
Anyone who uses their fame/status to further a political idea is a piece of shit. Their ideas weigh just as much as anyone else's do, but they feel they need special attention (about their political ideas/views) because they have more money than you. Why doesn't that piss you off?
If bruce willis got an oscar and spouted off shit about how no one should elect john kerry, i'd shit in a box and fed ex it to him and demi. Its not his views i'm insulting, its his attitude and im not going to listen to anything a sloppy egotistical fuck has to say about...well anything.
Message 59/147 03-May-04 @ 12:31 AM - RE:
the greatest conservative political icon of the last fifty years....ronald reagan>
wasn't an actor from hollywood, california?
neither was charles heston?
gov. jesse ventura? NOT a www-wrestling star? that's not entertainment?
wasn't an actor from hollywood, california?
neither was charles heston?
gov. jesse ventura? NOT a www-wrestling star? that's not entertainment?
Message 60/147 03-May-04 @ 12:46 AM - RE:
arnold schwarzennegar isn't an actor??
you name one conservative actor / tough-guy (bruce willis) who hasn't gone into politics and so you say therefore....none of your feather do?
clint eastwood wasn't an actor before he entered politics?
you name one conservative actor / tough-guy (bruce willis) who hasn't gone into politics and so you say therefore....none of your feather do?
clint eastwood wasn't an actor before he entered politics?
Message 61/147 03-May-04 @ 02:03 AM - RE:
AND...by the way...the last article i posted a link for can even be found at navyseals.com.
another left-wing puke organization which is involved
in the dissimenation of lies designed to tear our nation down.
a rEALLY BAD attitude that lot.
another left-wing puke organization which is involved
in the dissimenation of lies designed to tear our nation down.
a rEALLY BAD attitude that lot.
Message 62/147 03-May-04 @ 08:00 AM - RE:
I kinda dig Michael Moore, but I can't take him seriously...
that said...
Michael Moore doesn't use his fame to preach, he got famous preaching. He's not some entertainer thta's abusing his fame, it's WHY he's famous.
So, you're yapping up the wrong tree.
it's too friggin' easy to support/condemn and pretend you're right! Ulitmately we're all right... and it doesn't f+ckin' matter. I own clothing made by little suffering children from countries I'll never visit... some of you own vehicles with deliberately innefecient engines... others are just following orders in Iraq... and still others are issuing those orders because (just like all of us yapping here) they think they know what's best.
it's horrible that you guys have at any point here condescended to pick on BS because he's a "kid"... how can he hope to have a conversation on that level? It's not possible... you open it with, I don't respect your virgin opinion.
I'm going to go back to sitting on my sofa and watching the news so I can figure out who the bad guys are... that way I can continue to prop up this dichotomy fiction that serves to make me feel superior to people who don't meet my expectations...
me me me mine mine mine... I think I think I think
piss and shit and worthless...
I am at war with war. I hate the hate. I judge the judgers.
I am the problem
e
that said...
Michael Moore doesn't use his fame to preach, he got famous preaching. He's not some entertainer thta's abusing his fame, it's WHY he's famous.
So, you're yapping up the wrong tree.
it's too friggin' easy to support/condemn and pretend you're right! Ulitmately we're all right... and it doesn't f+ckin' matter. I own clothing made by little suffering children from countries I'll never visit... some of you own vehicles with deliberately innefecient engines... others are just following orders in Iraq... and still others are issuing those orders because (just like all of us yapping here) they think they know what's best.
it's horrible that you guys have at any point here condescended to pick on BS because he's a "kid"... how can he hope to have a conversation on that level? It's not possible... you open it with, I don't respect your virgin opinion.
I'm going to go back to sitting on my sofa and watching the news so I can figure out who the bad guys are... that way I can continue to prop up this dichotomy fiction that serves to make me feel superior to people who don't meet my expectations...
me me me mine mine mine... I think I think I think
piss and shit and worthless...
I am at war with war. I hate the hate. I judge the judgers.
I am the problem
e
Message 63/147 03-May-04 @ 09:40 AM - RE:
at last we know the truth e.
anyway I thought the young started left wing and got more right wing as they got older/richer etc. At this rate BS will be campaining for a one person world when he hits 50 - and if George doesn't make a start on the environment he may get what he wishes.
No really BS you are exactly the person we need to influence, we are all washed out fucknicks peddaling our lifestyles harder off the edge cos we is past it, but you are some one who could become something and it is into you that we should instill an ability for calm respect and compassionate wisdom. Me? I say fuck you - you've had more than enough and its exactly that special treatment that keeps this whole boat floating. Give it all away BS, its the only way to know that you have achieved anything
anyway I thought the young started left wing and got more right wing as they got older/richer etc. At this rate BS will be campaining for a one person world when he hits 50 - and if George doesn't make a start on the environment he may get what he wishes.
No really BS you are exactly the person we need to influence, we are all washed out fucknicks peddaling our lifestyles harder off the edge cos we is past it, but you are some one who could become something and it is into you that we should instill an ability for calm respect and compassionate wisdom. Me? I say fuck you - you've had more than enough and its exactly that special treatment that keeps this whole boat floating. Give it all away BS, its the only way to know that you have achieved anything
Message 64/147 03-May-04 @ 03:28 PM - RE:
Message 65/147 03-May-04 @ 09:13 PM - RE:
here's something fun and irreverent for our light-hearted little monkeys.
web-link
the pictures towards the bottom should be of interest.
web-link
the pictures towards the bottom should be of interest.
Message 66/147 03-May-04 @ 11:14 PM - RE:
clay- the validity of the last few pictures are kinda sketchy. Also, why dont they have any descriptions/comments as they do for all the other ones?
Message 68/147 04-May-04 @ 12:06 AM - RE:
i predict that, as we speak.....the military is confiscating every camera in the hands of our soldiers in iraq.
it's reasonable to suggest that our government loathes the press enough without allowing our own warriors to unwittingly become accomplices to this vile exposure of our own worst behaviors.
these things should definitely occur behind closed doors.....away
from the eye of any camera.
fix that and we'll have fewer problems taming the iraqis
as well as our own american public.
it'll simply be like a rock concert. no cameras or tape recorders allowed.
it's reasonable to suggest that our government loathes the press enough without allowing our own warriors to unwittingly become accomplices to this vile exposure of our own worst behaviors.
these things should definitely occur behind closed doors.....away
from the eye of any camera.
fix that and we'll have fewer problems taming the iraqis
as well as our own american public.
it'll simply be like a rock concert. no cameras or tape recorders allowed.
Message 69/147 04-May-04 @ 02:31 AM - RE:
I give up, i obviously cant say anything productive due to my lack of age. i'll go read my chemistry book.
Message 70/147 04-May-04 @ 02:57 AM - RE:
btw! my last post was 69!!!!1!!1
OMFG
i cant wait to tell my friends at skool
LOL jesus christ, take your condescending attitude and cram it in your ass clay. seriously, totally unappreciated. you're not being clever, you're being a dick.
I had to get that out of my system.
There, I'm not smiling, It's a half smile.
OMFG
i cant wait to tell my friends at skool
LOL jesus christ, take your condescending attitude and cram it in your ass clay. seriously, totally unappreciated. you're not being clever, you're being a dick.
I had to get that out of my system.
There, I'm not smiling, It's a half smile.
Message 72/147 04-May-04 @ 05:55 AM - RE:
you both take yourselves way too seriously. you know this, right?
Message 74/147 04-May-04 @ 05:07 PM - RE:
"I am the problem"
not having caught michael moore for several years, i'm not sure if this is intended as sarcasm or something.
rest assured that criticism is *not* the problem. building prison camps, putting people in them and shoving fireworks up their ass is a bit worse than deigning to critique. if the problem is in yourself, then why doesn't it go away when you sleep? bloody bobby mcferrin was a white guy in disguise i swear.
not having caught michael moore for several years, i'm not sure if this is intended as sarcasm or something.
rest assured that criticism is *not* the problem. building prison camps, putting people in them and shoving fireworks up their ass is a bit worse than deigning to critique. if the problem is in yourself, then why doesn't it go away when you sleep? bloody bobby mcferrin was a white guy in disguise i swear.
Message 75/147 04-May-04 @ 05:12 PM - RE:
besides, it's hardly news. standard army practice all around since who knows when.
Message 76/147 05-May-04 @ 12:13 AM - RE:
having listened to some of mcferrin's work rather closely over the years...
i beg to differ.
his songs ring of transcendence in spite of the slavery and sadness which contains the roots of his music.
even through irony (as in "don't worry...be happy") and perhaps even wishful thinking....
he serves to enlighten.
his music can get so deep to the level of being painful....but in a more haunting manner than this woe-is-me crybaby stuff which often passes for "soul".
and it would seem callous to suggest he SERVES our master gleefully....as wasn't it him who quite publically asked the president of the united states...george bush 1 ...NOT to use his song as the theme-song for his re-election?
and i don't think he asked that quietly either.....though i'll guarantee he asked it
in a manner conducive enough to affording him the respect that i, still today,
have for him.
check his cd Medicine Man if you ever get a chance.
i beg to differ.
his songs ring of transcendence in spite of the slavery and sadness which contains the roots of his music.
even through irony (as in "don't worry...be happy") and perhaps even wishful thinking....
he serves to enlighten.
his music can get so deep to the level of being painful....but in a more haunting manner than this woe-is-me crybaby stuff which often passes for "soul".
and it would seem callous to suggest he SERVES our master gleefully....as wasn't it him who quite publically asked the president of the united states...george bush 1 ...NOT to use his song as the theme-song for his re-election?
and i don't think he asked that quietly either.....though i'll guarantee he asked it
in a manner conducive enough to affording him the respect that i, still today,
have for him.
check his cd Medicine Man if you ever get a chance.
Message 77/147 05-May-04 @ 04:43 AM Edit: 05-May-04 | 04:49 AM - RE:
I believe that just about sums it up....
BS, myopia man... terrible terrible thing to come down with.....does anyone know if you can get a shot for that?
Message 78/147 05-May-04 @ 06:32 AM - RE:
quote: he's a consultant for a bunch of big companies like martin marietta (sp lol) and CACI...kinda like a F-22 salesman :P
coincidentally enough..... CACI is showing up as one of the 2 main
companies cited in these torture investigations.
coincidentally enough..... CACI is showing up as one of the 2 main
companies cited in these torture investigations.
Message 79/147 05-May-04 @ 06:51 AM - RE:
"coincidentally enough..... CACI is showing up as one of the 2 main
companies cited in these torture investigations."
ask your daddy about that shit bro!
companies cited in these torture investigations."
ask your daddy about that shit bro!
Message 80/147 06-May-04 @ 12:22 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
It's not torture it's re-education in the ways of a free and democratic society based on an independent judiciary and the rights of the individual enshrined in a constitution!
O, wait....
I meant
'Strip the arab motherfucker and wire him up... '
That'll teach him to have an irrational hate for the USA and the freedoms they enjoy!
O, wait....
I meant
'Strip the arab motherfucker and wire him up... '
That'll teach him to have an irrational hate for the USA and the freedoms they enjoy!
Message 81/147 06-May-04 @ 12:38 AM - RE:
what i want to know is when was it decided
THAT>?
these corporate f-22 salesmen-types should start to determine the nature of the american military's jobs and how they are to perform their tasks?
now we got sneaky nameless guys...CONTRACTORS so to speak....telling our armed forces to "soften" these guys up for us?
and when these soldiers do as asked (sir)...it's the military grunts which
GO DOWN>while
smooth-daddy WHO ordered it done....waltzes to another consultation?
what fiendish nazi crap.
these guys are the most un-american guys you could ever want to hold up on a pedestal...if you ask me.
it's obvious america is no longer about george washington or freedom or anything of the sort.
it's about.....kill anyone who stands in the way of the bush family.
but psssst.....you know...not KILL them...just kILL them.
and remember....... no MAS pictures ya stu[pid DORKz!!!!!
it's weird how we got an oil-man president and gas is at a gazillion dollars.
THAT>?
these corporate f-22 salesmen-types should start to determine the nature of the american military's jobs and how they are to perform their tasks?
now we got sneaky nameless guys...CONTRACTORS so to speak....telling our armed forces to "soften" these guys up for us?
and when these soldiers do as asked (sir)...it's the military grunts which
GO DOWN>while
smooth-daddy WHO ordered it done....waltzes to another consultation?
what fiendish nazi crap.
these guys are the most un-american guys you could ever want to hold up on a pedestal...if you ask me.
it's obvious america is no longer about george washington or freedom or anything of the sort.
it's about.....kill anyone who stands in the way of the bush family.
but psssst.....you know...not KILL them...just kILL them.
and remember....... no MAS pictures ya stu[pid DORKz!!!!!
it's weird how we got an oil-man president and gas is at a gazillion dollars.
Message 82/147 06-May-04 @ 07:06 AM - RE:
reprinting a letter i found at blessedcause.org.
if you read other stuff there, you'll find this person to be as fundamental a christian as they come:
We have lost the right to be in Iraq.
It was good to take Saddam down, our war effort against terrorism has been just, but after what a handful of soldiers did to Iraqi prisoners, we should leave immediately.
If we cannot trust our field commanders not to put sadists in charge, then we do not deserve the right to be there. I find it hard to believe our commanders did not realize the character of their selected soldiers. They are just as much to blame if not more. We should pull out, and pull out now.
My concern is for this man, Pfc. Keith Maupin and other POWs like him, what will happen to them because of what a handful of sick sadistic soldiers did?
Rather than let Maupin suffer the rage of Iraq, perhaps we should trade those same sadistic soldiers in for Maupin and any other POWs. Why must Maupin pay the price?
Remember how shocked we were when Shoshana Johnson, Ron Young and other American POWs were returned to us? Tom Hamill escaped relatively unharmed. Are the Iraqis treating American captives and POWs better than we treat theirs? Are we worse than terrorists? Do we dare hope for such miracles after what we've done to Iraqi prisoners?
There is no excuse. The abuse of Iraqi prisoners cannot be ignored. I do not blame President Bush, I do not blame our American soldiers in fact I applaud them, but what this handful of soldiers did has cost us, and because of their actions we should leave. We had a chance to do something glorious, we were working to change the world for the better, and we blew it. There should have been stringent precautions taken to avoid these abuses. It's more than just a handful of soldiers, it's the commanders that let it breed. Our right to be there is forfeit. America is responsible for what our soldiers have done. We should apologize and try to leave with what little dignity we have left. We should negotiate to leave with the return of our POWs before it's too late for them, if it isn't already.
And for the handful of Iraqis who put their trust in us and joined in our efforts, I think we should offer to bring them and their families back with us, not leave them behind to be slaughtered. We should form some sort of citizenship without voting privileges because there are so many Muslims that would need refuge, and Islam is working so hard to gain the majority in our government, it wouldn't be right to grant them our government along with protection. But protect them we must. Bring them home.
The media was INCENSED when they showed pictures of terrified faces of our U.S. POWs in Iraq. IMAGINE what we would have done if we saw pictures of our U.S. POWs being treated as the Iraqi POWs are being treated!
I AM OUTRAGED about what happened at 9/11. I am OUTRAGED about what happens to our soldiers in Iraq. But I am ALSO OUTRAGED about what we, who are supposed to be the "good guys" did to Iraqi prisoners. We were supposed to be liberating them, not *&%$%$ them, and I AM OUTRAGED that my country has been represented by a bunch of sadists. That our good American soldiers will now be vilified. That our POWs will probably be tortured likewise.
I think that if it's true any of the Iraqi's were sodomized, I hope the military has stiffer consequences than our blankety-blank liberal courts do in America. The US is currently glorifying homosexuality, we're being conditioned to accept it. MUSLIMS ARE NOT. These offenses are felt far more deeply than it ever would have to our decadent, public-school-porn-fed society.
I have been threatened, I have put my life on the line in many ways by being so confrontive about what is being taught to our children in public schools, soft-selling Islam. I have faced humiliation, mocking, being called a bigot and a whole assortment of offenses. I am not a lover of Islam by any means. But what we did to those we were "liberating" is an ABOMINATION.
Meanwhile, reports that the commanders might even lose their commands (gasp) is a further outrage. They should be brought up on charges along with the soldiers. They had to have known who they hand picked to watch over the prisoners. People who fight together know each other very well. Those commanders WERE RESPONSIBLE and should be facing prison sentences, not merely a court martial!
I believe in the efforts of President Bush and our military. It is a shame that all of our good work had to be tainted by a handful of soldiers and a couple of commanders. But it is tainted, nonetheless, and we should leave.
We should leave, and rethink the sexual deviance we teach our children in public school under the guise of "freedom."
if you read other stuff there, you'll find this person to be as fundamental a christian as they come:
We have lost the right to be in Iraq.
It was good to take Saddam down, our war effort against terrorism has been just, but after what a handful of soldiers did to Iraqi prisoners, we should leave immediately.
If we cannot trust our field commanders not to put sadists in charge, then we do not deserve the right to be there. I find it hard to believe our commanders did not realize the character of their selected soldiers. They are just as much to blame if not more. We should pull out, and pull out now.
My concern is for this man, Pfc. Keith Maupin and other POWs like him, what will happen to them because of what a handful of sick sadistic soldiers did?
Rather than let Maupin suffer the rage of Iraq, perhaps we should trade those same sadistic soldiers in for Maupin and any other POWs. Why must Maupin pay the price?
Remember how shocked we were when Shoshana Johnson, Ron Young and other American POWs were returned to us? Tom Hamill escaped relatively unharmed. Are the Iraqis treating American captives and POWs better than we treat theirs? Are we worse than terrorists? Do we dare hope for such miracles after what we've done to Iraqi prisoners?
There is no excuse. The abuse of Iraqi prisoners cannot be ignored. I do not blame President Bush, I do not blame our American soldiers in fact I applaud them, but what this handful of soldiers did has cost us, and because of their actions we should leave. We had a chance to do something glorious, we were working to change the world for the better, and we blew it. There should have been stringent precautions taken to avoid these abuses. It's more than just a handful of soldiers, it's the commanders that let it breed. Our right to be there is forfeit. America is responsible for what our soldiers have done. We should apologize and try to leave with what little dignity we have left. We should negotiate to leave with the return of our POWs before it's too late for them, if it isn't already.
And for the handful of Iraqis who put their trust in us and joined in our efforts, I think we should offer to bring them and their families back with us, not leave them behind to be slaughtered. We should form some sort of citizenship without voting privileges because there are so many Muslims that would need refuge, and Islam is working so hard to gain the majority in our government, it wouldn't be right to grant them our government along with protection. But protect them we must. Bring them home.
The media was INCENSED when they showed pictures of terrified faces of our U.S. POWs in Iraq. IMAGINE what we would have done if we saw pictures of our U.S. POWs being treated as the Iraqi POWs are being treated!
I AM OUTRAGED about what happened at 9/11. I am OUTRAGED about what happens to our soldiers in Iraq. But I am ALSO OUTRAGED about what we, who are supposed to be the "good guys" did to Iraqi prisoners. We were supposed to be liberating them, not *&%$%$ them, and I AM OUTRAGED that my country has been represented by a bunch of sadists. That our good American soldiers will now be vilified. That our POWs will probably be tortured likewise.
I think that if it's true any of the Iraqi's were sodomized, I hope the military has stiffer consequences than our blankety-blank liberal courts do in America. The US is currently glorifying homosexuality, we're being conditioned to accept it. MUSLIMS ARE NOT. These offenses are felt far more deeply than it ever would have to our decadent, public-school-porn-fed society.
I have been threatened, I have put my life on the line in many ways by being so confrontive about what is being taught to our children in public schools, soft-selling Islam. I have faced humiliation, mocking, being called a bigot and a whole assortment of offenses. I am not a lover of Islam by any means. But what we did to those we were "liberating" is an ABOMINATION.
Meanwhile, reports that the commanders might even lose their commands (gasp) is a further outrage. They should be brought up on charges along with the soldiers. They had to have known who they hand picked to watch over the prisoners. People who fight together know each other very well. Those commanders WERE RESPONSIBLE and should be facing prison sentences, not merely a court martial!
I believe in the efforts of President Bush and our military. It is a shame that all of our good work had to be tainted by a handful of soldiers and a couple of commanders. But it is tainted, nonetheless, and we should leave.
We should leave, and rethink the sexual deviance we teach our children in public school under the guise of "freedom."
Message 83/147 06-May-04 @ 08:42 AM - RE:
Long live creationism!
"We should form some sort of citizenship without voting privileges because there are so many Muslims that would need refuge, " - he should get a proper pet that will automaticaly love him, humans need work
"We should form some sort of citizenship without voting privileges because there are so many Muslims that would need refuge, " - he should get a proper pet that will automaticaly love him, humans need work
Message 84/147 06-May-04 @ 09:26 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Stupid, stupid stupid stupid...
The 'New American Century' (with poodle Bliar in tow) what a complete travesty on so many levels..
George and Tony? These arrogant morons should be sacked and forced to go serve on the front line in Fallujah for the next 10 years, or until they become collateral damage, whichever takes longest.
You can throw in the entire board of Haliburton and the rest of the corporate undead as well, and their spawn.
The 'New American Century' (with poodle Bliar in tow) what a complete travesty on so many levels..
George and Tony? These arrogant morons should be sacked and forced to go serve on the front line in Fallujah for the next 10 years, or until they become collateral damage, whichever takes longest.
You can throw in the entire board of Haliburton and the rest of the corporate undead as well, and their spawn.
Message 85/147 06-May-04 @ 11:06 AM - RE:
hur hur... I had to laugh.... they showed some footage of the Rice bitch on TV banging on about how such incidents were not acceptible cos America was democraticaly accountable and because people had legal rights under the USA etc
hmm... Like at Guantanamo bay then... er... lol... they really are up sh*t creek - it's hilarious.
hmm... Like at Guantanamo bay then... er... lol... they really are up sh*t creek - it's hilarious.
Message 86/147 06-May-04 @ 02:26 PM - RE:
"we had a chance to do something glorious.." lol no you fucking didn't. clue: if it's glorious, you're probably making it up.
Message 87/147 06-May-04 @ 03:14 PM - RE:
well....at least bush is driving a canadian bus as he tours the states heralding a strong, decisive, and unwavering america.
what's funny is that one of those states is michigan.....which is home to our auto-industry.
you think they're not gonna notice?
what's funny is that one of those states is michigan.....which is home to our auto-industry.
you think they're not gonna notice?
Message 88/147 06-May-04 @ 11:18 PM - RE:
That's not very free trade of you motor cyclist's concubine.
Message 89/147 07-May-04 @ 12:04 AM - RE:
very interesting article>
an faa official felt it was his right to destroy testimonial tapes recorded by air-controllers right after the 9/11 tragedy.
BECAUSE HE
FELT
it broke a rule...HE crushed serious historical testimony and cut the tape-up into pieces and spread the bits amongst several different trash-cans.
web-link
an faa official felt it was his right to destroy testimonial tapes recorded by air-controllers right after the 9/11 tragedy.
BECAUSE HE
FELT
it broke a rule...HE crushed serious historical testimony and cut the tape-up into pieces and spread the bits amongst several different trash-cans.
web-link
Message 91/147 07-May-04 @ 01:20 AM - RE:
canadian bus story is rather trivial.....but bush is touring in a candian-built prevost which cost over a million dollars.
and he's going to hit michigan on this 4-state tour from what i understand.
it just doesn't seem the way to win points there.
but then again...they might go yeah! GEORGE!....we love YOU driving THEIR bus
NOT ours.
i mean it could happen.
the way i look at it....they could be just be so outta their minds, excited to shine his shoes....
they might not even notice. but i doubt it.
i think they'll notice.
and he's going to hit michigan on this 4-state tour from what i understand.
it just doesn't seem the way to win points there.
but then again...they might go yeah! GEORGE!....we love YOU driving THEIR bus
NOT ours.
i mean it could happen.
the way i look at it....they could be just be so outta their minds, excited to shine his shoes....
they might not even notice. but i doubt it.
i think they'll notice.
Message 92/147 07-May-04 @ 01:58 AM Edit: 07-May-04 | 02:00 AM - RE:
"coincidentally enough..... CACI is showing up as one of the 2 main
companies cited in these torture investigations."
bullshit, caci had one person there who was suspected of abusing iraqi prisoners.
if you can't trust the media for its pro bush shit, then how you can't trust it for its anti bush shit?
BTW, sorry for the '--- bush shit"--i don't know how else to express waht I'm trying to say, but I think you get it
companies cited in these torture investigations."
bullshit, caci had one person there who was suspected of abusing iraqi prisoners.
if you can't trust the media for its pro bush shit, then how you can't trust it for its anti bush shit?
BTW, sorry for the '--- bush shit"--i don't know how else to express waht I'm trying to say, but I think you get it
Message 93/147 07-May-04 @ 02:17 AM - RE:
Prevost is canadian? I used to put furniture in those damn things. Prevost, Bluebird...
fcking expensive.
that is rather ironic tho, isnt it? Why not a Bluebird then? Arent they an american company?
is there really such a thing anymore? american, japanese, etc? seems like theyve all blended.
fcking expensive.
that is rather ironic tho, isnt it? Why not a Bluebird then? Arent they an american company?
is there really such a thing anymore? american, japanese, etc? seems like theyve all blended.
Message 95/147 07-May-04 @ 02:38 AM - RE:
i'm no expert at bus-brand options....so i can't say but yeah...it looks to be a nice ride and their headquarters address is canadian.
Message 96/147 07-May-04 @ 03:28 AM - RE:
theyre called "coaches" btw. I always used to get in trouble for saying BUS, or worse yet, MOBILE HOME!!!
Message 98/147 07-May-04 @ 12:46 PM - RE:
er.... BUSES & COACHES Forum please guys.... *sheesh*
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 100/147 07-May-04 @ 09:45 PM - RE:
fuck. sorry. wrong forum. wrong nomenclature. wrong lingo, too.
I fuckin suck. sorry fuckers!
I fuckin suck. sorry fuckers!
Message 102/147 07-May-04 @ 10:16 PM Edit: 07-May-04 | 10:17 PM - RE:
paraphrasing Rumsfeld's testimony during the Senate Arms Committee....
"these acts are not indicitative of US moral character....I would say that they were unpatriotic"
wait a fucking minute! How are these acts not indicitive of the US moral character. In the face of GLOBAL protest, world wide dissent, we still chose to force american ideals and principles down the throat of an entire nation. the only people cool with it there on the real are the fucking Kurds.... and that's only because they are scrunchend between two enemies all of the fucking time, Iran and Saddam. not to mention we've been flying war planes over "kurdistan" for almost 15 years, keeping them nice and safe from the aforementioned...
moral character my ass!
don't agree, and the bombs will begin to fall....especially if you're of a dark complexion!
"these acts are not indicitative of US moral character....I would say that they were unpatriotic"
wait a fucking minute! How are these acts not indicitive of the US moral character. In the face of GLOBAL protest, world wide dissent, we still chose to force american ideals and principles down the throat of an entire nation. the only people cool with it there on the real are the fucking Kurds.... and that's only because they are scrunchend between two enemies all of the fucking time, Iran and Saddam. not to mention we've been flying war planes over "kurdistan" for almost 15 years, keeping them nice and safe from the aforementioned...
moral character my ass!
don't agree, and the bombs will begin to fall....especially if you're of a dark complexion!
Message 103/147 08-May-04 @ 10:10 AM - RE:
didnt you mean to say turks? they are the ones fighting an unofficial "secret" war on kurds and the ones who charged in with tanks and special forces into kurd teritory as soon as usa atacked iraq... and the ones who said they wont let usa fly their planes over their teritory until they promise kurds wont get their own republic after the war... oh wait... they are NATO, so thats ok then 
Message 104/147 08-May-04 @ 10:47 AM - RE:
there's a kurdish kebab shop just up the road from me ... mmmm .. kebabs.
what was that about coaches?
oh yeah, rumsfeld, what a kunt.
what was that about coaches?
oh yeah, rumsfeld, what a kunt.
Message 105/147 11-May-04 @ 04:42 AM - RE:
this excerpt pretty-much names four individuals
most-likely-responsible for providing orders to abuse at abu ghraib.
we're not talking about the fall-grunts who are being court-martialed for following instructions.
we're talking about those who are most-likely gonna make the slip because they're either 1) private contractors with loose-connections ...or 2) getting higher up the command-chain and therfore closer-to-home:
"Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability."
Furthermore, General Taguba goes into some detail, describing the key role played by this gang of four in permitting and even orchestrating the abuse. Of Pappas, Commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade and the Commander of FOB Abu Ghraib, Taguba recommended a reprimand for failing to supervise the troops that were, at least theoretically, under his command. As for Lt. Col. Jordan, former Director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center attached to the 205th MI Brigade, Taguba advised not only a reprimand but also that Jordan be relieved of his command.
The two "civilian" contractors, John Israel and Steven Stephanowicz, who share the blame with Pappas and Jordan, are the most intriguing characters in this fast developing drama, and the most mysterious. We know everything about Lynndie England – the "trailer park girl in the eye of the storm," as the UK Mirror puts it – the "pixie-ish" Appalachian girl who appears in so many of the photos, giving a thumbs up and grinning idiotically, looking every inch the born victim. But who the heck is John Israel? We don't even know who employs him. As one news report notes:
"The other contractor implicated, John Israel, identified as a civilian translator assigned to the same brigade, is described in one place in the Army report as a CACI employee and in another as an employee of Titan, which provides translators for the Army throughout Iraq."
The New York Times reports:
"Ralph Williams, a spokesman for the Titan Corporation in San Diego, said Tuesday that John Israel, one of the contract employees implicated in the prison abuse scandal, worked for a Titan subcontractor that he would not name."
Hmmmmmmmmm…..
A wide-ranging Google search turns up only two references to individuals who may or may not be the mysterious John Israel: This one, based on the email address alone. And this one, located on a Yahoo website/mailist devoted to discussing the role-playing computer games Twilight 2000 and Merc 2000.
Mr. Stefanowicz (news accounts consistently misspell his name "Stephanowicz," as does the Taguba report) is less mysterious but no less intriguing. This is due in large part to the efforts of his mother, Jean Campbell, and the U.S. Department of Defense, which used her story as propaganda to support the war effort. In a piece distributed by the Armed Forces News Service and featured on the DoD's propaganda website, Stefanowicz's Mom is depicted as a paragon of patriotic virtue:
"Jean Campbell's son, Navy Petty Officer Steven Stefanowicz, is on active duty with the U.S. Navy in the Middle East. She is championing his service by uniting service members' mothers in her home state.
"Campbell, of Telford, Pa., joined the Blue Star Mothers and set up a chapter of the nonprofit service organization. She hopes to spark a chain reaction with chapters forming in every county."
The Taguba report describes Stefanowicz as a "civilian Contract Interrogator" employed by CACI, and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade. Taguba goes on to accuse him of having "made a false statement to the investigation team regarding the locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses."
Stefanowicz had been living in Adelaide, Australia, for some reason, although he had earlier served as a reservist, and is quoted by an Australian newspaper, a week after the 9/11 terrorist attacks:
"'It was one of the most incredible and most devastating things I have ever seen,' he told an Australian newspaper the week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. ;I have been in constant contact with my family and friends in the U.S., and the mood was very solemn and quiet. But this is progressing into anger.'"
A whole lot of anger, apparently.
As in the case of John Israel, we don't even know who employs Stefanowicz. According to the Philadelphia Daily News:
"What's more, CACI International steadfastly refuses to even say whether Stefanowicz really does work for the Arlington, Va.-based defense contractor - refusing to return several phone calls and an e-mail from the Daily News. In a lengthy conference call with investment analysts yesterday morning, top executives insisted that one of two men named in news accounts - Stefanowicz and John Israel - in fact does not work for them. A company executive - it wasn't clear from the call which one - did say that one of the named employees was still on the payroll and 'by all accounts doing a damned fine job.'"
You figure it out!
As far as anyone knows, both Stefanowicz and John Israel are still stationed at Abu Ghraib, but, incredibly, the former is now telling his friends that he's coming home – no, not back to the small town outside Philadelphia where he was brought up, but to Australia, where he worked for 18 months in the "information technology" field and where his fiancée lives. As The Australian reports,
"[Stefanowicz] wrote to an Adelaide friend on Thursday, saying he wanted to leave Iraq: 'It's safe to say I've seen enough for a lifetime here in Iraq and it's definitely time to come home,' the 35-year-old said in an email. …'He's coming back to Australia shortly – he feels like Adelaide is his home,' said one acquaintance from the IT industry.'"
It's all so very casual: a likely war criminal is going to just get on a plane and sashay over to Australia, where he'll take up where he left off and marry the girl of his dreams, his "anger" over 9/11 apparently abated.
Will Stefanowicz get away with it? Will the U.S. authorities allow him to just run off, and take refuge in Australia or some other country, getting off scot-free while poor slobs like Sivits, Trailer-Park Lynndie, and the other fall guys get the book thrown at them?
If Stefanowicz is allowed to flee Iraq, without being arrested either by the Americans or the Iraqis, then we have the right to ask: who and what is being protected here?
That top U.S. officials knew and approved of how the detainees were "softened up" for interrogation is now coming out. Stefanowicz and John Israel, the two "civilian" contract employees, played key roles in all this, and are likely the primary links to high-ups. Yet their role is being steadfastly ignored, and one of them is being allowed to sneak away quietly – while their instruments, a bunch of clueless kids who did as they were told, take the rap.
The cover-up proceeds apace, with our brain-dead "mainstream" media criminally complicit. Whether this is through incompetence or intention is hard to discern, and hardly worth wondering about: after all, the net effect is the same. As Martha Frederick, wife of one of the accused, trenchantly remarked:
"Those who are responsible are standing behind the curtain and watching him take the fall for it. It's almost like being a pawn in a chess game."
If the Abu Ghraib defendants are pawns in a game, then who are the players? Whose hidden hands manipulate their destinies, like so many expendable pieces on a chessboard?
Everything about this war has been shrouded in secrecy and covered over by a thick layer of lies and subterfuges. The "Office of Special Plans," the "White House Iraq Group," and other ad hoc semi-clandestine operations, set up by the neocons in the dark bowels of the national security bureaucracy, went outside regular channels and operated as essentially independent entities. This war and its disastrous aftermath were engineered, reports Bob Woodward in his new book, Plan of Attack, by the Vice President and his neoconservative Praetorian Guard in a veritable coup d'etat:
"Powell felt Cheney and his allies – his chief aide, I. Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith and what Powell called Feith's 'Gestapo' office – had established what amounted to a separate government."
Could that "separate government" have sent its agents to Iraq – in the form of "private" contractors – and carried out its own military policy in the name of fighting the "war on terrorism" – by terroristic means? Inquiring minds want to know….
NOTES IN THE MARGIN
Okay, so we're getting pretty near the end of our fundraising effort, and, as you probably know, we've upped our goal by 10,000 bucks this time around, in hopes of hiring a news editor. As of this writing, it isn't at all clear to me that we'll make it. Oh, sure, we'll have enough to get along in the same old way. But – you know what? – tha
most-likely-responsible for providing orders to abuse at abu ghraib.
we're not talking about the fall-grunts who are being court-martialed for following instructions.
we're talking about those who are most-likely gonna make the slip because they're either 1) private contractors with loose-connections ...or 2) getting higher up the command-chain and therfore closer-to-home:
"Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability."
Furthermore, General Taguba goes into some detail, describing the key role played by this gang of four in permitting and even orchestrating the abuse. Of Pappas, Commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade and the Commander of FOB Abu Ghraib, Taguba recommended a reprimand for failing to supervise the troops that were, at least theoretically, under his command. As for Lt. Col. Jordan, former Director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center attached to the 205th MI Brigade, Taguba advised not only a reprimand but also that Jordan be relieved of his command.
The two "civilian" contractors, John Israel and Steven Stephanowicz, who share the blame with Pappas and Jordan, are the most intriguing characters in this fast developing drama, and the most mysterious. We know everything about Lynndie England – the "trailer park girl in the eye of the storm," as the UK Mirror puts it – the "pixie-ish" Appalachian girl who appears in so many of the photos, giving a thumbs up and grinning idiotically, looking every inch the born victim. But who the heck is John Israel? We don't even know who employs him. As one news report notes:
"The other contractor implicated, John Israel, identified as a civilian translator assigned to the same brigade, is described in one place in the Army report as a CACI employee and in another as an employee of Titan, which provides translators for the Army throughout Iraq."
The New York Times reports:
"Ralph Williams, a spokesman for the Titan Corporation in San Diego, said Tuesday that John Israel, one of the contract employees implicated in the prison abuse scandal, worked for a Titan subcontractor that he would not name."
Hmmmmmmmmm…..
A wide-ranging Google search turns up only two references to individuals who may or may not be the mysterious John Israel: This one, based on the email address alone. And this one, located on a Yahoo website/mailist devoted to discussing the role-playing computer games Twilight 2000 and Merc 2000.
Mr. Stefanowicz (news accounts consistently misspell his name "Stephanowicz," as does the Taguba report) is less mysterious but no less intriguing. This is due in large part to the efforts of his mother, Jean Campbell, and the U.S. Department of Defense, which used her story as propaganda to support the war effort. In a piece distributed by the Armed Forces News Service and featured on the DoD's propaganda website, Stefanowicz's Mom is depicted as a paragon of patriotic virtue:
"Jean Campbell's son, Navy Petty Officer Steven Stefanowicz, is on active duty with the U.S. Navy in the Middle East. She is championing his service by uniting service members' mothers in her home state.
"Campbell, of Telford, Pa., joined the Blue Star Mothers and set up a chapter of the nonprofit service organization. She hopes to spark a chain reaction with chapters forming in every county."
The Taguba report describes Stefanowicz as a "civilian Contract Interrogator" employed by CACI, and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade. Taguba goes on to accuse him of having "made a false statement to the investigation team regarding the locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses."
Stefanowicz had been living in Adelaide, Australia, for some reason, although he had earlier served as a reservist, and is quoted by an Australian newspaper, a week after the 9/11 terrorist attacks:
"'It was one of the most incredible and most devastating things I have ever seen,' he told an Australian newspaper the week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. ;I have been in constant contact with my family and friends in the U.S., and the mood was very solemn and quiet. But this is progressing into anger.'"
A whole lot of anger, apparently.
As in the case of John Israel, we don't even know who employs Stefanowicz. According to the Philadelphia Daily News:
"What's more, CACI International steadfastly refuses to even say whether Stefanowicz really does work for the Arlington, Va.-based defense contractor - refusing to return several phone calls and an e-mail from the Daily News. In a lengthy conference call with investment analysts yesterday morning, top executives insisted that one of two men named in news accounts - Stefanowicz and John Israel - in fact does not work for them. A company executive - it wasn't clear from the call which one - did say that one of the named employees was still on the payroll and 'by all accounts doing a damned fine job.'"
You figure it out!
As far as anyone knows, both Stefanowicz and John Israel are still stationed at Abu Ghraib, but, incredibly, the former is now telling his friends that he's coming home – no, not back to the small town outside Philadelphia where he was brought up, but to Australia, where he worked for 18 months in the "information technology" field and where his fiancée lives. As The Australian reports,
"[Stefanowicz] wrote to an Adelaide friend on Thursday, saying he wanted to leave Iraq: 'It's safe to say I've seen enough for a lifetime here in Iraq and it's definitely time to come home,' the 35-year-old said in an email. …'He's coming back to Australia shortly – he feels like Adelaide is his home,' said one acquaintance from the IT industry.'"
It's all so very casual: a likely war criminal is going to just get on a plane and sashay over to Australia, where he'll take up where he left off and marry the girl of his dreams, his "anger" over 9/11 apparently abated.
Will Stefanowicz get away with it? Will the U.S. authorities allow him to just run off, and take refuge in Australia or some other country, getting off scot-free while poor slobs like Sivits, Trailer-Park Lynndie, and the other fall guys get the book thrown at them?
If Stefanowicz is allowed to flee Iraq, without being arrested either by the Americans or the Iraqis, then we have the right to ask: who and what is being protected here?
That top U.S. officials knew and approved of how the detainees were "softened up" for interrogation is now coming out. Stefanowicz and John Israel, the two "civilian" contract employees, played key roles in all this, and are likely the primary links to high-ups. Yet their role is being steadfastly ignored, and one of them is being allowed to sneak away quietly – while their instruments, a bunch of clueless kids who did as they were told, take the rap.
The cover-up proceeds apace, with our brain-dead "mainstream" media criminally complicit. Whether this is through incompetence or intention is hard to discern, and hardly worth wondering about: after all, the net effect is the same. As Martha Frederick, wife of one of the accused, trenchantly remarked:
"Those who are responsible are standing behind the curtain and watching him take the fall for it. It's almost like being a pawn in a chess game."
If the Abu Ghraib defendants are pawns in a game, then who are the players? Whose hidden hands manipulate their destinies, like so many expendable pieces on a chessboard?
Everything about this war has been shrouded in secrecy and covered over by a thick layer of lies and subterfuges. The "Office of Special Plans," the "White House Iraq Group," and other ad hoc semi-clandestine operations, set up by the neocons in the dark bowels of the national security bureaucracy, went outside regular channels and operated as essentially independent entities. This war and its disastrous aftermath were engineered, reports Bob Woodward in his new book, Plan of Attack, by the Vice President and his neoconservative Praetorian Guard in a veritable coup d'etat:
"Powell felt Cheney and his allies – his chief aide, I. Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith and what Powell called Feith's 'Gestapo' office – had established what amounted to a separate government."
Could that "separate government" have sent its agents to Iraq – in the form of "private" contractors – and carried out its own military policy in the name of fighting the "war on terrorism" – by terroristic means? Inquiring minds want to know….
NOTES IN THE MARGIN
Okay, so we're getting pretty near the end of our fundraising effort, and, as you probably know, we've upped our goal by 10,000 bucks this time around, in hopes of hiring a news editor. As of this writing, it isn't at all clear to me that we'll make it. Oh, sure, we'll have enough to get along in the same old way. But – you know what? – tha
Message 106/147 11-May-04 @ 06:38 PM - RE:
this is just another example of the hubris of america in general.........
===========================================================
Senator 'Outraged by Outrage' at Prison Abuse
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As others condemned the reported abuse of Iraqi prisoners, U.S. Sen. James Inhofe on Tuesday expressed outrage at the worldwide outrage over the treatment by American soldiers of those he called "terrorists" and "murderers."
"I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," the Oklahoma Republican said at a U.S. Senate hearing probing the scandal.
"These prisoners, you know they're not there for traffic violations," Inhofe said. "If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals."
Coalition military intelligence officers estimated that about 70 percent to 90 percent of the thousands of prisoners detained in Iraq (news - web sites) had been "arrested by mistake," according to a report by Red Cross given to the Bush administration last year and leaked this week.
The report also said the mistreatment of prisoners apparently tolerated by U.S. and other coalition forces in Iraq involved widespread abuse that was "in some cases tantamount to torture."
In heated remarks at odds with others on the Senate committee who took aim at the U.S. military's handling of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, Inhofe said that American sympathies should lie with U.S. troops.
"I am also outraged that we have so many humanitarian do-gooders right now crawling all over these prisons looking for human rights violations, while our troops, our heroes are fighting and dying," he said.
Inhofe, who visited Iraq in March, is described on his senatorial Web site as a leading conservative voice in the Senate, advocating "common sense Oklahoma values including less government, less regulation, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility and a strong national defense."
=========================================================
let someone stick a fucking glowstick in his ass and see how he likes it!
===========================================================
Senator 'Outraged by Outrage' at Prison Abuse
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As others condemned the reported abuse of Iraqi prisoners, U.S. Sen. James Inhofe on Tuesday expressed outrage at the worldwide outrage over the treatment by American soldiers of those he called "terrorists" and "murderers."
"I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," the Oklahoma Republican said at a U.S. Senate hearing probing the scandal.
"These prisoners, you know they're not there for traffic violations," Inhofe said. "If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals."
Coalition military intelligence officers estimated that about 70 percent to 90 percent of the thousands of prisoners detained in Iraq (news - web sites) had been "arrested by mistake," according to a report by Red Cross given to the Bush administration last year and leaked this week.
The report also said the mistreatment of prisoners apparently tolerated by U.S. and other coalition forces in Iraq involved widespread abuse that was "in some cases tantamount to torture."
In heated remarks at odds with others on the Senate committee who took aim at the U.S. military's handling of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, Inhofe said that American sympathies should lie with U.S. troops.
"I am also outraged that we have so many humanitarian do-gooders right now crawling all over these prisons looking for human rights violations, while our troops, our heroes are fighting and dying," he said.
Inhofe, who visited Iraq in March, is described on his senatorial Web site as a leading conservative voice in the Senate, advocating "common sense Oklahoma values including less government, less regulation, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility and a strong national defense."
=========================================================
let someone stick a fucking glowstick in his ass and see how he likes it!
Message 107/147 11-May-04 @ 06:47 PM - RE:
SOLDIERS TRY TO SCRAPE BY, CONTRACTORS RAKE IN THE DOUGH: The average income for a military household is about $3300 a month. The president has tried to reduce the modest monthly stipend that soldiers get for working in imminent danger from $225 a month to $150 a month. Private contractors, however, rake in up to $1500 a day. Industry can afford to pay excessive salaries because up to 30 percent of the $87.5 billion supplemental appropriations law passed in November will find its way to private contractors.
Message 108/147 11-May-04 @ 07:12 PM - RE:
In many ways SOME of the terrorists are right in their philosophy... NOT IN THEIR methods, I need to make that clear, I don't support killing anyone!
But... the US shouldn't be all one nation. the idea that you guys outside of the US can read what that representative from Oklahoma says and assign it to all americans proves it for me. Oklahoma is a very different place than where I live, I've traveled all over the States, and there are VERY different cultures in this country... disparate and real differences, that are fundamental in the way we view our roles in the world... I'm not pretending that culturaly I'm superior, just different...
and maybe, that's just not OK that the rest of the world has so many nations, and North America has three... especially considering that one of those three is a virtual slave state to one of the others... (my apologies to Mexican Nationalists!)
There's a reason American struts the Earth with conceit and disregard for EVERY other nation... we ARE too powerful, too comfortable, too strong!!! We don't want to depend on anyone else, for anything else... it's the gated community mindset on a global scale!
It's seated in fear, the need to be the strongest, the winningest and the wealthiest, cause we're so god damned afraid of the alternative. We're happy to bomb brown people, beat the crap out of naked, defenseless young men in leather hoods!!! Anything to make us feel safer!
I try to imagine what the parents of those kids in the pictures must think. When those were babies, did they understand that they would raise them up to be monsters in service to their parents' greed, laziness and fear?!
I dunno
e
But... the US shouldn't be all one nation. the idea that you guys outside of the US can read what that representative from Oklahoma says and assign it to all americans proves it for me. Oklahoma is a very different place than where I live, I've traveled all over the States, and there are VERY different cultures in this country... disparate and real differences, that are fundamental in the way we view our roles in the world... I'm not pretending that culturaly I'm superior, just different...
and maybe, that's just not OK that the rest of the world has so many nations, and North America has three... especially considering that one of those three is a virtual slave state to one of the others... (my apologies to Mexican Nationalists!)
There's a reason American struts the Earth with conceit and disregard for EVERY other nation... we ARE too powerful, too comfortable, too strong!!! We don't want to depend on anyone else, for anything else... it's the gated community mindset on a global scale!
It's seated in fear, the need to be the strongest, the winningest and the wealthiest, cause we're so god damned afraid of the alternative. We're happy to bomb brown people, beat the crap out of naked, defenseless young men in leather hoods!!! Anything to make us feel safer!
I try to imagine what the parents of those kids in the pictures must think. When those were babies, did they understand that they would raise them up to be monsters in service to their parents' greed, laziness and fear?!
I dunno
e
Message 109/147 11-May-04 @ 10:29 PM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
'We don't want to depend on anyone else, for anything else..'
Like oil for instance?
Like oil for instance?
Message 110/147 11-May-04 @ 10:36 PM - RE:
precisely... right now we do a bit... but only a bit... We may not own oil production around the globe, but over the last 50 years we have insured that we control the vast majority of it.
The idea behind invading Iraq was to have a huge military base presense in the middle east... why? so we can control the governments there. why? because they produce oil...
We don't want to have to play by the rules! We don't want to have to be fair!
And, with the way things are today, we don't have to!
e
The idea behind invading Iraq was to have a huge military base presense in the middle east... why? so we can control the governments there. why? because they produce oil...
We don't want to have to play by the rules! We don't want to have to be fair!
And, with the way things are today, we don't have to!
e
Message 111/147 11-May-04 @ 11:55 PM - RE:
all you gotta understand is jabba-the-hut dick cheney and you can know everything you need to know about what governs our universe.
he's still smiles on his way to these meetings.
and i mean what a smile.
he's still smiles on his way to these meetings.
and i mean what a smile.
Message 112/147 12-May-04 @ 05:07 PM - RE:
cc your rumination on america's character as a by product of it's facilities seems a bit off.. you depict it like america is just so good and suddenly we're noticing that "we're too good or something," when in reality, you have to be an asshole first before you start patrolling the school grounds as a braggart. it's not like the u.s. went to iraq with good intentions that went awry, the intentions were duplicitous from the get go.
you start thinking "this "kill all americans" bit isn't right" and then you set out to justify this via 'americans are diverse,' et c. it's a bit silly.. there's no justification for not killing people. in fact, your whole post is a bit waffly/casual like you just wanted to type - fair enough :p i can't imagine that you actually think these things.
"i try to imagine what their parents must think" you're amusing yourself, toying with your capacity to imagine emotions, displace ego whatever. it's quite clear what their parents thought - the rush of shock/realisation/refusal and/or acceptance anyone who's taken a psychedelic should be familiar with. this unpleasantness isn't a justification for anything.
i try not to make a point of punishing people for their illusions.. but i definately don't forgive them unconditionally for them.
every american who ever picked up a can of bug spray is culpable. on a visceral level, you know when you're fucking up the universe for others. you don't get in a car and not realise that you're creating poison.. you just ignore it because you don't care.
plain and simple. there are always two parties responsible in any deception.
you start thinking "this "kill all americans" bit isn't right" and then you set out to justify this via 'americans are diverse,' et c. it's a bit silly.. there's no justification for not killing people. in fact, your whole post is a bit waffly/casual like you just wanted to type - fair enough :p i can't imagine that you actually think these things.
"i try to imagine what their parents must think" you're amusing yourself, toying with your capacity to imagine emotions, displace ego whatever. it's quite clear what their parents thought - the rush of shock/realisation/refusal and/or acceptance anyone who's taken a psychedelic should be familiar with. this unpleasantness isn't a justification for anything.
i try not to make a point of punishing people for their illusions.. but i definately don't forgive them unconditionally for them.
every american who ever picked up a can of bug spray is culpable. on a visceral level, you know when you're fucking up the universe for others. you don't get in a car and not realise that you're creating poison.. you just ignore it because you don't care.
plain and simple. there are always two parties responsible in any deception.
Message 113/147 12-May-04 @ 06:00 PM - RE:
from my end at least....
e~ almost always has this roundabout manner in describing his viewpoint.
which is fine if you have some previous foundation from which to transcribe his hieroglyphic.
none of us are so different in that regard.
there are times, however, when juxtaposing poetry with hard-opinion
tends to lose sway.
as artists we all struggle with this need to reflect our surroundings in as creative a manner as possible.
i think this simple aspect is quite often the only thing that separates us from politicians.
e~ almost always has this roundabout manner in describing his viewpoint.
which is fine if you have some previous foundation from which to transcribe his hieroglyphic.
none of us are so different in that regard.
there are times, however, when juxtaposing poetry with hard-opinion
tends to lose sway.
as artists we all struggle with this need to reflect our surroundings in as creative a manner as possible.
i think this simple aspect is quite often the only thing that separates us from politicians.
Message 114/147 12-May-04 @ 06:15 PM - RE:
Whoa, hey, hold on... I clearly didn't express myself very well if that's what you got xoxos...
I don't believe killing people is a reasonable means to any end... I'm not going to pretty it up with "diverse" populations, etc... I don't agree with terrorist methods, I do see their point.
And It helps me see their point that someone in Oklahoma said something and people in other countries figure it's a reflection of our cultural values. I've been to Oklahoma... some Oklahomans disagree with his callous attitude, but the vast majority don't (I think) making his opinion a cultural one. Where as, where I live many people disagree... I wouldn't say it's a majority, I'm not sure, because those who do agree with him may well not voice their real opinions in mixed company due to the cultural values of my region, which for the most part contradict his opinions. So, it's the regional diversity that makes me think that maybe the US is too big... there's no concensus in this country... we no longer agree on fundamental issues like war, violence and morality.
So maybe we're too big. So big that we can be assholes and not have to answer for it. Yes we've always been assholes, it's sort of a human condition... hell, ask the native american, he'll tell you what pricks "Americans" (those in charge) are. But with the power and resources we have we can do it with impunity...
I don't need to be told that America had poor intentions going into Iraq... I don't personaly believe that this country had good intentions going into WW2... We're self absorbed bottom feeders... Vultures with attitude... That's what i was gettin' at up there...
As for the parents... I said i dunno... and I don't. It's good that you do, but I can't be sure that anyone is inherently so f+cked up that they would be happy to raise their children to be what it takes to do the things we've seen. But maybe you're right... I agree that those who are complicit in allowing and feeding a monster are indeed monsters.
but I wasn't celebrating the diversity of Americans (though I might...), and I wasn't saying America was EVER good... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there... but I suspect what's screwed up about us now is the same thing that's always been screwed up about us. Fear seasoned with a determined disregard for anything that doesn't match our notion of how it should be...
e
I don't believe killing people is a reasonable means to any end... I'm not going to pretty it up with "diverse" populations, etc... I don't agree with terrorist methods, I do see their point.
And It helps me see their point that someone in Oklahoma said something and people in other countries figure it's a reflection of our cultural values. I've been to Oklahoma... some Oklahomans disagree with his callous attitude, but the vast majority don't (I think) making his opinion a cultural one. Where as, where I live many people disagree... I wouldn't say it's a majority, I'm not sure, because those who do agree with him may well not voice their real opinions in mixed company due to the cultural values of my region, which for the most part contradict his opinions. So, it's the regional diversity that makes me think that maybe the US is too big... there's no concensus in this country... we no longer agree on fundamental issues like war, violence and morality.
So maybe we're too big. So big that we can be assholes and not have to answer for it. Yes we've always been assholes, it's sort of a human condition... hell, ask the native american, he'll tell you what pricks "Americans" (those in charge) are. But with the power and resources we have we can do it with impunity...
I don't need to be told that America had poor intentions going into Iraq... I don't personaly believe that this country had good intentions going into WW2... We're self absorbed bottom feeders... Vultures with attitude... That's what i was gettin' at up there...
As for the parents... I said i dunno... and I don't. It's good that you do, but I can't be sure that anyone is inherently so f+cked up that they would be happy to raise their children to be what it takes to do the things we've seen. But maybe you're right... I agree that those who are complicit in allowing and feeding a monster are indeed monsters.
but I wasn't celebrating the diversity of Americans (though I might...), and I wasn't saying America was EVER good... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there... but I suspect what's screwed up about us now is the same thing that's always been screwed up about us. Fear seasoned with a determined disregard for anything that doesn't match our notion of how it should be...
e
Message 115/147 12-May-04 @ 07:18 PM - RE:
plus....as the saying goes:
it takes a man to admit when he's made a mistake.
it takes a man to admit when he's made a mistake.
Message 116/147 13-May-04 @ 12:56 PM - RE:
So individuals are not responsible but nations are to blame (again).
What gets me is the sheer sheep stupidity of this use of the concept 'us'. When did the American dream ever have a space for a 'we' - isn't that the point that 'you' can do it, 'you' can achieve regardless of your background and 'do'. And what of this 'us', when you move reactions to a mass it becomes more predictable (and manipulable??) so you have your 'us' and they have your 'us' - still
Nah really lets forget this tub thumping, 'us', 'them', whatever, all this rabble rousing is a blank for certain public and private 'individuals' spending and recieving large amounts of public money for military consumables (including people) and making a killing at your expense. And thats just your take, between inoccupier and occupied we are laughing at the american peoples stupidity at putting up with it or cursing cos our lives are being intimidated or changed by it. Of course none of 'us' have any idea about the reality of being occupied and thats probably where to think, like what would you guys be doing if there were a bunch of heathen decadent race occupying Washington, lording massive military and political force over you and yours and blindly / consistently supporting a nearby enemy
What gets me is the sheer sheep stupidity of this use of the concept 'us'. When did the American dream ever have a space for a 'we' - isn't that the point that 'you' can do it, 'you' can achieve regardless of your background and 'do'. And what of this 'us', when you move reactions to a mass it becomes more predictable (and manipulable??) so you have your 'us' and they have your 'us' - still
Nah really lets forget this tub thumping, 'us', 'them', whatever, all this rabble rousing is a blank for certain public and private 'individuals' spending and recieving large amounts of public money for military consumables (including people) and making a killing at your expense. And thats just your take, between inoccupier and occupied we are laughing at the american peoples stupidity at putting up with it or cursing cos our lives are being intimidated or changed by it. Of course none of 'us' have any idea about the reality of being occupied and thats probably where to think, like what would you guys be doing if there were a bunch of heathen decadent race occupying Washington, lording massive military and political force over you and yours and blindly / consistently supporting a nearby enemy
Message 117/147 13-May-04 @ 04:29 PM - RE:
no one (here at least) seems to be suggesting that the americans pictured in the abuse-photos aren't responsible.
what we're saying is that they're getting directives from somewhere.
somewhere vague, nebulous, obscure....but very, very real.
and this needs to be addressed.
besides cheds.....anytime someone tells me they show up with 30% protective swathing...
we can assume it's more like 60% or 70% (at the very least) so please quit pretending.
what we're saying is that they're getting directives from somewhere.
somewhere vague, nebulous, obscure....but very, very real.
and this needs to be addressed.
besides cheds.....anytime someone tells me they show up with 30% protective swathing...
we can assume it's more like 60% or 70% (at the very least) so please quit pretending.
Message 118/147 13-May-04 @ 06:07 PM - RE:
Sorry Cheddar... I don't see it that way.
There is a strong individual "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America, I agree wholeheartedly.. and I don't approve of it! You're right on that one... but AMerica is at it's worst when we act as a nation, man!!! People in the US have a terrible fear response that drives their herd mentality... the whole "do it yourself" thing goes out the window at the slightest perceived threat. People in America were afraid of the gun toting survivalist types 10 years ago (and hell, one of them blew up a federal building and killed a bunch of little babies)... those were rugged individual types who personified the selfish ethic of "American Values", not pretty, not at all...
But what's profoundly worst is when Americans get together behind a cause and wave flags and celebrate their "us-ness"! Then we have God, and Gold and entitlement... That's when we're dangerous.
e
There is a strong individual "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America, I agree wholeheartedly.. and I don't approve of it! You're right on that one... but AMerica is at it's worst when we act as a nation, man!!! People in the US have a terrible fear response that drives their herd mentality... the whole "do it yourself" thing goes out the window at the slightest perceived threat. People in America were afraid of the gun toting survivalist types 10 years ago (and hell, one of them blew up a federal building and killed a bunch of little babies)... those were rugged individual types who personified the selfish ethic of "American Values", not pretty, not at all...
But what's profoundly worst is when Americans get together behind a cause and wave flags and celebrate their "us-ness"! Then we have God, and Gold and entitlement... That's when we're dangerous.
e
Message 119/147 13-May-04 @ 06:12 PM - RE:
lets put an end to this right now.... "US" and "We" bullshit.
when america was fighting for its freedom, for its right to soverignity...the only thing on the minds of the "framers" of the constitution was themselves. Business men whom understood that while under the wing of Great Britain that they'd never get away with the shit that they wanted to get away with...thus; revolt.
read the Federalist Papers for christs sake...its all right there. John Jay, Alexander Hamiliton, and James Madison...those are the men that molded america into the fucking monster its become. Electoral College....strength of the federal government over the states....these men knew how to usurp control... and then keep it in a headlock with the "noooogie" always looming above your dome. and its been that way since.
American schools don't teach this shit. in second or third grade you are still told that Christopher Columbus discovered america. and that the Pilgrims and the indians got along. and that scalping of the "colonists" was something that natives had done to each other before whitey ever showed his face. ALL BULLSHIT! yet, its perpetuated throughout early academia.
Critical thinking skills are not fostered in america's schools, and this leads to the sheepification of the american population. and I guess if you want to get all Machiavellian about it.... if the government wants to maintain control of their "subjects", its a whole lot easier with a bunch of fucking idiots running around concerned with how loud their speakers are or when the new dave matthews band bootleg is dropping. so, in essence it serves the government to keep its citizenry dumb...all you have to do is look at the state of schools here.
What we need is a paradigm shift.... the catalyst for such things I'm not sure of... but humankind needs something.
when america was fighting for its freedom, for its right to soverignity...the only thing on the minds of the "framers" of the constitution was themselves. Business men whom understood that while under the wing of Great Britain that they'd never get away with the shit that they wanted to get away with...thus; revolt.
read the Federalist Papers for christs sake...its all right there. John Jay, Alexander Hamiliton, and James Madison...those are the men that molded america into the fucking monster its become. Electoral College....strength of the federal government over the states....these men knew how to usurp control... and then keep it in a headlock with the "noooogie" always looming above your dome. and its been that way since.
American schools don't teach this shit. in second or third grade you are still told that Christopher Columbus discovered america. and that the Pilgrims and the indians got along. and that scalping of the "colonists" was something that natives had done to each other before whitey ever showed his face. ALL BULLSHIT! yet, its perpetuated throughout early academia.
Critical thinking skills are not fostered in america's schools, and this leads to the sheepification of the american population. and I guess if you want to get all Machiavellian about it.... if the government wants to maintain control of their "subjects", its a whole lot easier with a bunch of fucking idiots running around concerned with how loud their speakers are or when the new dave matthews band bootleg is dropping. so, in essence it serves the government to keep its citizenry dumb...all you have to do is look at the state of schools here.
What we need is a paradigm shift.... the catalyst for such things I'm not sure of... but humankind needs something.
Message 120/147 18-May-04 @ 07:32 AM - RE:
for those of you following these stories.....
and especially for our energetic and much-appreciated friend...dissonance.
perhaps the most comprehensive and well layed-out argument against the madness which we know as iraq.
like if you had to read just one....this might be it:web-link
and especially for our energetic and much-appreciated friend...dissonance.
perhaps the most comprehensive and well layed-out argument against the madness which we know as iraq.
like if you had to read just one....this might be it:web-link
Message 121/147 18-May-04 @ 07:58 AM - RE:
hey errata...would you prefer more government or less?
cuz..those "not pretty...survivalists"...if you drop the stupid ing white power thing are really just extremely intent on maintaining their own freedom
kinda like what we talk about here all the time
cuz..those "not pretty...survivalists"...if you drop the stupid ing white power thing are really just extremely intent on maintaining their own freedom
kinda like what we talk about here all the time
Message 122/147 18-May-04 @ 04:47 PM - RE:
influx...i'm curious as to your take on the notion of more OR less government.
especially in light of the fact that conservative principals always use big-government and big-spending as the duo-evils to eradicate....until they're in of course.
well....we've got a pretty good picture of what the new-right's version of
less-government means at this point.
more money for war.
more governmental police surveillance.
fewer restrictions on those corporations ready and able to pay enormous kickbacks.
"less-government" guys like rumsfeld and cheney...porofessional survivors from nixon's inner-sanctum governing in an even more secretive and treacherous and vengeful environment.
i like the white-house calling mel gibson and letting him know if he were to fund the moore film....there'd be NO MORE DINNER INVITATIONS FOR HIM.
i can just see this guy who stood up to hollywood from within it's own ranks going:
oh? no dinner?
that don't sound like freedom to me.
sounds like a threat.
and yes...they do bother to call.
especially in light of the fact that conservative principals always use big-government and big-spending as the duo-evils to eradicate....until they're in of course.
well....we've got a pretty good picture of what the new-right's version of
less-government means at this point.
more money for war.
more governmental police surveillance.
fewer restrictions on those corporations ready and able to pay enormous kickbacks.
"less-government" guys like rumsfeld and cheney...porofessional survivors from nixon's inner-sanctum governing in an even more secretive and treacherous and vengeful environment.
i like the white-house calling mel gibson and letting him know if he were to fund the moore film....there'd be NO MORE DINNER INVITATIONS FOR HIM.
i can just see this guy who stood up to hollywood from within it's own ranks going:
oh? no dinner?
that don't sound like freedom to me.
sounds like a threat.
and yes...they do bother to call.
Message 123/147 18-May-04 @ 05:41 PM - RE:
"if it's glorious, you're probably making it up. "
LOL !!!!
sorry, i missed this gem
doubleplusgood
LOL !!!!
sorry, i missed this gem
doubleplusgood
Message 124/147 18-May-04 @ 11:46 PM - RE:
quote
doubleplusgood
doubleplusgood
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 126/147 19-May-04 @ 05:54 AM - RE:
hmmm. less government?
tough, just like everything else, eh?
BUT...dont tell me what to do. Dont tell YOU what to do
except when it involves others. Either their harm or (truly) potential harm.
but then...on the other side...part of me thinks that if the citizenry contributes to the government, then the government should take care of the citizenry. Without question, no special treatment.
I personally think healthcare should be public sector, but of course...well...any good social medicine systems out there?
the military should be for pure defense. none of this $2500000000000000000000 spent in the desert 12000 miles away
Hell, I dont claim to even remotely understand the workings of the US/word at present OR in theory, but I know something is WRONG. horribly wrong.
and...talkin about hope in the other thread? I still get these romantic flashes of what _could be_ if only just....
tough, just like everything else, eh?
BUT...dont tell me what to do. Dont tell YOU what to do
except when it involves others. Either their harm or (truly) potential harm.
but then...on the other side...part of me thinks that if the citizenry contributes to the government, then the government should take care of the citizenry. Without question, no special treatment.
I personally think healthcare should be public sector, but of course...well...any good social medicine systems out there?
the military should be for pure defense. none of this $2500000000000000000000 spent in the desert 12000 miles away
Hell, I dont claim to even remotely understand the workings of the US/word at present OR in theory, but I know something is WRONG. horribly wrong.
and...talkin about hope in the other thread? I still get these romantic flashes of what _could be_ if only just....
Message 127/147 19-May-04 @ 04:45 PM - RE:
those romantic flashes are what keeps us going.
call it what you want....but it's human to dream and want and hope.
never let the ogre take that away from you.
l
call it what you want....but it's human to dream and want and hope.
never let the ogre take that away from you.
l
Message 128/147 19-May-04 @ 05:46 PM - RE:
Influx,
i'm a an unrepentant socialist! For me it's not about more or less government. It's about a different attitude amongst the people. and working to encourage that! I believe we should indeed have a government, one which limits the gross power of business and maintains a military devoted to defense (an unfortunately necesarry evil in our unfortunate world) and ensures the simple public safetly from violence. But what I "want" requires a change in the attitudes of most people that wil probably not happen. So instead I'll settle for a balance of decent attitudes (generosity, compassion) and I'll support the right of others to disagree with me.
As for the survivalists... I wholeheartedly disagree. These are people (yes they still exist) who are driven by fear and agression. I knew a few about 10 years ago... they're armed, they're angry and they're afraid. Most of that movement is prepared for war. And I can't overlook the white power thing... it's a fundamental aspect of most of those philosophies. They are armed, angry white people who are afraid of everything that isn't them. (Of course there are others who live in the same way that don't meet these notions... I'm talking about the movement, therefore I'm unfortunately stereotyping)... they aren't ALL like that.
But, bottom line, I believe those with have a necesarry responsibility to those without. shrug
e
i'm a an unrepentant socialist! For me it's not about more or less government. It's about a different attitude amongst the people. and working to encourage that! I believe we should indeed have a government, one which limits the gross power of business and maintains a military devoted to defense (an unfortunately necesarry evil in our unfortunate world) and ensures the simple public safetly from violence. But what I "want" requires a change in the attitudes of most people that wil probably not happen. So instead I'll settle for a balance of decent attitudes (generosity, compassion) and I'll support the right of others to disagree with me.
As for the survivalists... I wholeheartedly disagree. These are people (yes they still exist) who are driven by fear and agression. I knew a few about 10 years ago... they're armed, they're angry and they're afraid. Most of that movement is prepared for war. And I can't overlook the white power thing... it's a fundamental aspect of most of those philosophies. They are armed, angry white people who are afraid of everything that isn't them. (Of course there are others who live in the same way that don't meet these notions... I'm talking about the movement, therefore I'm unfortunately stereotyping)... they aren't ALL like that.
But, bottom line, I believe those with have a necesarry responsibility to those without. shrug
e
Message 129/147 20-May-04 @ 02:34 AM - RE:
you'll never hear a black man running around saying he's a survivalist.
he's in the hood...in the jungle....he don't have to say he's a survivalist.
he just simply is.
brother can you spare a dime?
survivalists are generally somewhat well-off anti-social white-folk...which is cool to an extent if you wanna be by yourself and talk to the squirrels and stuff in between writing your hopeless manifesto and making pots out of earthen clay.
unfortunately> polishing that rifle-barrel and always looking back to make sure no city-folk followed you seem to be such a part of the consciousness.
personally...i have a tough time tolerating people too.
but you know what? people seem to be the only ones with money.
squirrels got no money.
and well...i got some kneepads and gloves and a trowel and perhaps i could do some beautifying of your home?
it will cost you however.
and guaranteed we don't have to like each other.
he's in the hood...in the jungle....he don't have to say he's a survivalist.
he just simply is.
brother can you spare a dime?
survivalists are generally somewhat well-off anti-social white-folk...which is cool to an extent if you wanna be by yourself and talk to the squirrels and stuff in between writing your hopeless manifesto and making pots out of earthen clay.
unfortunately> polishing that rifle-barrel and always looking back to make sure no city-folk followed you seem to be such a part of the consciousness.
personally...i have a tough time tolerating people too.
but you know what? people seem to be the only ones with money.
squirrels got no money.
and well...i got some kneepads and gloves and a trowel and perhaps i could do some beautifying of your home?
it will cost you however.
and guaranteed we don't have to like each other.
Message 131/147 21-May-04 @ 05:31 PM - RE:
Hey, mcc...
are you saying you hate the hands that feed you?
e
are you saying you hate the hands that feed you?
e
Message 132/147 21-May-04 @ 08:28 PM - RE:
i had a potential customer who recently tried to do me with one of these polite little affronts
by saying
"i don't want you to start coming in 2 hours a day and take 8 months to finish this job".
what she was saying was that she was this non-white super hardcore christian wanna be white suv-er and practiced pronouncing judgment on anyone who's been able to make a reputation as a free-spirit....hard-ass working...give the customer an unreal deal and still be able to say they got a great piece of work at a great price...in a generally friendly and reliable, professional manner.....and yet she can still rub her little subtle polite christian superiority crap in my face.
believe me it's there. we're face to face and toe to toe.
i told her i wasn't sure what she was trying to suggest but for 1750.00 this job would only allow me 10 days or 2 weeks to get things done.
this had all been spelled-out in advance.
well...as usual...she knew she was spitting silly crap and started back-pedalling AND fast....explaining how they had a friend take 8 months to do something...and i'm like...vera...i'm not that guy.
(for one.....we're not friends.)
by saying
"i don't want you to start coming in 2 hours a day and take 8 months to finish this job".
what she was saying was that she was this non-white super hardcore christian wanna be white suv-er and practiced pronouncing judgment on anyone who's been able to make a reputation as a free-spirit....hard-ass working...give the customer an unreal deal and still be able to say they got a great piece of work at a great price...in a generally friendly and reliable, professional manner.....and yet she can still rub her little subtle polite christian superiority crap in my face.
believe me it's there. we're face to face and toe to toe.
i told her i wasn't sure what she was trying to suggest but for 1750.00 this job would only allow me 10 days or 2 weeks to get things done.
this had all been spelled-out in advance.
well...as usual...she knew she was spitting silly crap and started back-pedalling AND fast....explaining how they had a friend take 8 months to do something...and i'm like...vera...i'm not that guy.
(for one.....we're not friends.)
Message 133/147 21-May-04 @ 08:41 PM - RE:
too much thinkin involved here.
Im only "scared" of having the meager income I have taken from me to do horrible things. The idea of a semi-isolated property appeals to me in some ways. Being left alone, not hassled.
youre right tho...Christian Identity, W.A.R.....thats what people see as "survivalists"
there are plenty though who's only philosophy is that the current govt is out of control (no question there) and is systematically stomping on true freedom (again, no contest)
yes, the white power part is fcking stupid.
I dunno...since Ive lately begun to think of politics I think of "Social Democrat"
a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to. Symbiosis out of necessity.
pipe dream though
Im only "scared" of having the meager income I have taken from me to do horrible things. The idea of a semi-isolated property appeals to me in some ways. Being left alone, not hassled.
youre right tho...Christian Identity, W.A.R.....thats what people see as "survivalists"
there are plenty though who's only philosophy is that the current govt is out of control (no question there) and is systematically stomping on true freedom (again, no contest)
yes, the white power part is fcking stupid.
I dunno...since Ive lately begun to think of politics I think of "Social Democrat"
a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to. Symbiosis out of necessity.
pipe dream though
Message 134/147 22-May-04 @ 12:01 AM - RE:
I'm with ya 100% Influx... I was a libertarian for years, but slowly became a socialist. I know libertarians who'd shoot me for that! hehehe
I don't want the government passing laws that effect morality... but I do think that a government might be a necessary evil... a form of organized folk to prevent sh+theads from hurting people. To enforce to some degree the decency that apes refuse to gather into themselves without coaxing.
But all of that said, I'm all too aware of how those very ideas, when put into practice tend to oppress more than they free. I do not believe in forcing my ideas onto people, and too often that's what socialists do. I can't support silencing those who disagree, I can't support killing those who don't want to live the way i want to live...
I suppose I'm a big whinning bitch, because what I want is for people to do it on their own... and i know better than to expect that.
So i work to peacefuly change opinions and to arrange for what's already in the coffers to be spent on programs and people that provide for an even playing ground. Because barring an enlightened society, I think the "republic" (what Americans call Democracy) is the best realistic plan we have. Ours just needs a LOT of shaking up!!!
Hey, MCC... so are you saying that you hate the hands that feed you?
e
I don't want the government passing laws that effect morality... but I do think that a government might be a necessary evil... a form of organized folk to prevent sh+theads from hurting people. To enforce to some degree the decency that apes refuse to gather into themselves without coaxing.
But all of that said, I'm all too aware of how those very ideas, when put into practice tend to oppress more than they free. I do not believe in forcing my ideas onto people, and too often that's what socialists do. I can't support silencing those who disagree, I can't support killing those who don't want to live the way i want to live...
I suppose I'm a big whinning bitch, because what I want is for people to do it on their own... and i know better than to expect that.
So i work to peacefuly change opinions and to arrange for what's already in the coffers to be spent on programs and people that provide for an even playing ground. Because barring an enlightened society, I think the "republic" (what Americans call Democracy) is the best realistic plan we have. Ours just needs a LOT of shaking up!!!
Hey, MCC... so are you saying that you hate the hands that feed you?
e
Message 135/147 22-May-04 @ 12:45 AM - RE:
e~
let's just say pretending we're friends rarely seems to transpire
into anything meaningful...from the tradesman's end of things.
of course...it's a little a different if you're in politics. kiss. kiss.
i don't hate the hand that feeds me.
i just want to bite it occasionally.
let's just say pretending we're friends rarely seems to transpire
into anything meaningful...from the tradesman's end of things.
of course...it's a little a different if you're in politics. kiss. kiss.
i don't hate the hand that feeds me.
i just want to bite it occasionally.
Message 136/147 22-May-04 @ 04:34 PM - RE:
"a true system where each individual has that one voice, and is taken care of by the system he contributes to."
imagine the bureaucracy necessary to make such a concept viable! how about we already have that system in nature.. each individual has one voice, is nurtured by the system they nurture.. you know.. this crazy idea might actually work if we can just leave it at that w/o trying to officiate it as a governing system like the 'people all together tellnig each other what to do which is really just a front for manipulative evil maniacs but somehow even influx and cydonia cell and mcc all still think that somehow we should give it all up and be told what to do because for sooo long everyone says we need structure, how ya gonna do w/o structure? how?'
sigh, ask the fucking birds brah.
imagine the bureaucracy necessary to make such a concept viable! how about we already have that system in nature.. each individual has one voice, is nurtured by the system they nurture.. you know.. this crazy idea might actually work if we can just leave it at that w/o trying to officiate it as a governing system like the 'people all together tellnig each other what to do which is really just a front for manipulative evil maniacs but somehow even influx and cydonia cell and mcc all still think that somehow we should give it all up and be told what to do because for sooo long everyone says we need structure, how ya gonna do w/o structure? how?'
sigh, ask the fucking birds brah.
Message 137/147 22-May-04 @ 11:45 PM - RE:
There was a bird singing softly outside my window...
I woke up and looked out and it was perched there, prettily singing... and I swear's it's true, right before my eye's a farkin' squirrel lept from a tree and grabbed the bird, slammed it into the ground and kicked the sh+t out of it with his hind legs. Killed the bird right there as I woke.
I swear that's a true story, happened when I was around 12.
Not that it's meant to support anything
e
I woke up and looked out and it was perched there, prettily singing... and I swear's it's true, right before my eye's a farkin' squirrel lept from a tree and grabbed the bird, slammed it into the ground and kicked the sh+t out of it with his hind legs. Killed the bird right there as I woke.
I swear that's a true story, happened when I was around 12.
Not that it's meant to support anything
e
Message 138/147 23-May-04 @ 02:48 AM - RE:
c'mon x....birds got structure!
like they ALL wake up together....within a species at least.
there ain't one going...well...i ain't playin dat chit today.
no...they all wake up and sing and eat and fart and sing and stuff and
fart some more.....together as much as individual birds can do those things together.
you don't hear birds farting because they're birds.
now you try to lump me with influx and errata...which is cool by me
cause they be chill brah>* well...sort of except i think influx keeps his gun a little close to his side and i think e` wants to be a politican one day..
but for certain WE understand you special.
but promise!!!
NO one be callin da cops on da xoxos unless he destroy ALL mankind and then i figure the phone-lines are gone too anyways so callings a waste...yes..
so what's your special complaint here?
you wanna be leader?
in our perfect anarchist system....you top dog brah!
like they ALL wake up together....within a species at least.
there ain't one going...well...i ain't playin dat chit today.
no...they all wake up and sing and eat and fart and sing and stuff and
fart some more.....together as much as individual birds can do those things together.
you don't hear birds farting because they're birds.
now you try to lump me with influx and errata...which is cool by me
cause they be chill brah>* well...sort of except i think influx keeps his gun a little close to his side and i think e` wants to be a politican one day..
but for certain WE understand you special.
but promise!!!
NO one be callin da cops on da xoxos unless he destroy ALL mankind and then i figure the phone-lines are gone too anyways so callings a waste...yes..
so what's your special complaint here?
you wanna be leader?
in our perfect anarchist system....you top dog brah!
Message 139/147 23-May-04 @ 06:05 PM - RE:
"you wanna be leader?"
it's like nothing i ever say ever means anything to anyone, does it? go american nazi party.
it's like nothing i ever say ever means anything to anyone, does it? go american nazi party.
Message 140/147 23-May-04 @ 11:29 PM - RE:
I dont own a gun
and rurik...give me a system where there is merely cooperation and Im all for it! No coercion...GREAT!
but as of now it doesnt exist, and in a system so large some structure is absolutely necessary.
and rurik...give me a system where there is merely cooperation and Im all for it! No coercion...GREAT!
but as of now it doesnt exist, and in a system so large some structure is absolutely necessary.
Message 143/147 24-May-04 @ 03:00 AM - RE:
no explaining how one spends their energy....but i'm flattered.
so what kind of bird are you?
so what kind of bird are you?
Message 144/147 24-May-04 @ 03:32 AM Edit: 24-May-04 | 04:57 AM - RE:
pict
Posts: 1005
Link?: No link
File?: No file
deleted due to being pointless
Message 145/147 24-May-04 @ 04:33 PM - RE:
"so what kind of bird are you?"
a surfin', pink monkey bird
utopia = pointless
unless you have a quick (and clean) way of wiping out all metapolis off this pebble
have a nice day
a surfin', pink monkey bird
utopia = pointless
unless you have a quick (and clean) way of wiping out all metapolis off this pebble
have a nice day
Message 146/147 24-May-04 @ 06:37 PM - RE:
i've always been an advocate for chucking good logic right out the window if you can't do anythnig with it right away :p
it's always better to adopt the logic that greases the moment, isn't it..
there are too many nazi robots! we'll never have a good system this way! i'd better get along with these nazi robots now!
i don't know, maaaan, i'm just, like, why did the dude go to all the trouble just to say that i'd better get along? if it was true, it's be, like, apparent, like..
"let's err on the side where we have our tongues up someone's delicious fruity bottoms, eh?"
it's always better to adopt the logic that greases the moment, isn't it..
there are too many nazi robots! we'll never have a good system this way! i'd better get along with these nazi robots now!
i don't know, maaaan, i'm just, like, why did the dude go to all the trouble just to say that i'd better get along? if it was true, it's be, like, apparent, like..
"let's err on the side where we have our tongues up someone's delicious fruity bottoms, eh?"
Message 147/147 24-May-04 @ 10:03 PM - RE:
You think I want to be a politician?
my my my
I must be very bad at expressing myself.
Man, xoxos, no room for pragmatism? I admire that. (honestly).
After all, it's ALL just a beautifuly perfect display. Nothing to change, nothing to resist.
p
my my my
I must be very bad at expressing myself.
Man, xoxos, no room for pragmatism? I admire that. (honestly).
After all, it's ALL just a beautifuly perfect display. Nothing to change, nothing to resist.
p
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