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Forums - The lounge
Subject: Powell interview cut......
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Original Message 1/37 16-May-04 @ 06:41 PM Edit: 16-May-04 | 06:44 PM - Powell interview cut......
BLEEP THE PRESS: CAMERA MOVED OFF POWELL DURING RUSSERT GRILLING; AIDE ATTEMPTED TO CUT OFF INTERVIEW
Sun May 16 2004 10:45:35 ET
**Exclusive Details**
An aide to Sec. of State Colin Powell ordered a halt to a MEET THE PRESS interview and directed a camera to shoot a palm tree during provocative questioning by host Tim Russert!
Powell was being interview by satellite from Jordan.
State Department press aide Emily Miller fumed as Tim Russert went beyond the 10 minutes allotted for the NBC Sunday session.
MORE
13 minutes in to the interview, Miller attempted to pull the plug.
As Russert grilled Powell on his presentation at the UN of Iraq's alleged WMDs -- Miller moved the single remote camera off Powell.
"You're off," Miller announced.
"I am not off," Powell warned.
"No. They can't use it, they're editing it..." Miller said on an open microphone.
"Emily, get out of the way. Bring the camera back please," the secretary snapped.
MORE
Russert aired the exchange unedited.
Powell was 45 minutes late to the taping, a top source explained.
NBC's MEET THE PRESS joined in progress....
TIM RUSSERT: Finally, Mr. Secretary, in February of 2003, you placed your enormous personal credibility before the United Nations and laid out a case against Saddam Hussein, citing.
(Camera moved off of interview subject)
EMILY MILLER, STATE DEPARTMENT PRESS AIDE: You're off.
SECRETARY POWELL: I am not off.
EMILY MILLER, PRESS AIDE: No. They can't use it, they're editing it.
SECRETARY POWELL: He's still asking the questions.
EMILY MILLER, PRESS AIDE: He was not ...
SECRETARY POWELL: Tim, I am sorry I lost you.
MR. RUSSERT: I am right here Mr. Secretary. I would hope they would put you back on camera. I don't know who did that.
EMILY MILLER, PRESS AIDE: He was going to go for another five minutes.
SECRETARY POWELL: We've really scre...
MR. RUSSERT: I think that was one of your staff Mr. Secretary. I don't think that's appropriate.
SECRETARY POWELL: Emily, get out of the way. Bring the camera back please. (Camera returns to the interview subject) I think we're back on Tim, go ahead with your last question.
MR. RUSSERT: Thank you very much, sir.
In February of 2003, you put your enormous personal reputation on the line before the United Nations and said that you had solid sources for the case against Saddam Hussein. It now appears that an agent called "Curve Ball" had misled the CIA by suggesting that Saddam had trucks and trains that were delivering biological chemical weapons.
How concerned are you that some of the information you shared with the world is now inaccurate and discredited?
SECRETARY POWELL: I'm very concerned. When I made that presentation in February 2003, it was based on the best information that the Central Intelligence Agency made available to me. We studied it carefully. We looked at the sourcing and the case of the mobile trucks and trains. There was multiple sourcing for that. Unfortunately, that multiple sourcing over time has turned out to be not accurate, and so I'm deeply disappointed.
But I'm also comfortable that at the time that I made the presentation it reflected the collective judgment, the sound judgment, of the intelligence community, but it turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that I'm disappointed, and I regret it.
MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Secretary, we thank you very much for joining us again and sharing your views with us today. SECRETARY POWELL: Thanks, Tim.
(END OF PRE-TAPE INTERVIEW)
MR. RUSSERT: AND THAT WAS AN UNEDITED INTERVIEW WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE, TAPED EARLIER THIS MORNING FROM JORDAN.
WE APPRECIATE SECRETARY POWELL'S WILLINGNESS TO OVERRULE HIS PRESS AIDES' ATTEMPT TO ABRUPTLY CUT OFF OUR DISCUSSION AS I BEGAN TO ASK MY FINAL QUESTION.
==========================================================
WOW.... aint't that some right IN YOUR face disregard for journalism?
Message 2/37 16-May-04 @ 06:58 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: [image]
[image file]
Never one to miss a photo-op...
Message 4/37 16-May-04 @ 07:51 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Yup, at least she'd probably have a better chance of using sexual techniques to gain vital intelligence from the prisoners..
Message 6/37 17-May-04 @ 12:54 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
russert doesn't appear to mind the idea.
Message 7/37 17-May-04 @ 01:41 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
bitch looks about as dumb as a doornail.
big ol knockers tho! woohoo!
big ol knockers tho! woohoo!
Message 8/37 17-May-04 @ 06:10 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
talk about cut~
at what point this administration will try to "cut" the tape.....alter the tape....or perhaps even create a tape? and just when it needed it most?!!!!!
(taken from a site i've been visiting lately).
It's funny... there is so much emotional fanaticism and ignorance on this board. The above questions posted (time discrepancy, jumpsuit, time format, screaming) prove that there is something strange occurred:
(1) Why was there a break in the video as they pushed him over to his side before cutting his throat?
(2) Why did Berg not buck violently (at least his legs) while being cut... was he already dead? Only one person was holding him down... that wouldn't be enough since Berg was no small man. In the cutting scene, it was close-up not showing the rest of the body. Was someone hiding something... was he already dead?
(2) Why did his blood pour onto the floor instead of streaming out (as it normally would)... was he already dead?
(3) How did Berg (an American Jew) get clearance into Iraq which was an exceedingly dangerous place?
(3)Why did the military say he wasn't in U.S. custody? Is someone hiding something?
(4) Why isn't anyone questioning whether Berg was killed in April? What would the his executioners have done with him for a whole month (and someone not notice)?
(5) Why has this incident cooled down in the news so quickly?
99% of the people on this board are ignorant reactionaries. I'm glad someone was thinking (e.g., AH and GH)
Posted by: A_Doctor247 at May 16, 2004 10:24 PM
Reasons why things don't add up. There are a whole lot of people fooled (see posted comments above). Below is an interesting link. The truth will come out!
Source: http://topplerummy.org/berg/
1] Berg had connections to al Qaeda terrorists strong enough to be questioned by the FBI. His email was used by accused terrorist Zacharias Moussaoui.
2] The United States and the Iraqi police detained Berg for 13 days, not releasing him until his father filed suit. He was detained as a suspected Israeli spy. The US now denies it had anything to do with the detention despite correspondence to the contrary. The Iraqi police also deny any involvement in his detention. They are playing hot potato with it.
3] When Berg was detained he, a Jew, had a copy of the Koran and an anti-semetic book entitled 'The Jewish Problem'. That is just strange.
3] Berg doesn't struggle or even flinch when his head is sawed off with a western style military knife.
4] An Islamic extremist would know the proper way to behead someone. It is the chosen form of execution in Saudi Arabia and probably other Arab nations as well. It is accomplished with one clean sword stroke to the neck. The person hacking off the head obviously had a great deal of difficulty doing so, owing to the poor choice of blade and technique.
5 ] No blood spurts from his neck as he is supposed to be dieing. The amount of blood on the floor is much smaller than it should have been. He should have died from bleeding out and this would have resulted in a couple of liters of blood spurting from his neck.
6 ] No blood gets on the hand of 'Zarqawi' even though it was in front of Berg's neck when he should have been bleeding out.
7] Zarqawi is thought to be dead and is known to have an artificial leg. Clearly the man hacking off the head didn't.
8 ] Zarqawi is known to have a tattoo on the back of his left hand of three green dots. The man hacking off the head didn't have a tattoo on his hand.
9 ] All the men had nice WHITE hands. Except in the last 20-30 seconds when the face appears to have been digitally lightened, the hands are as white or whiter than Berg's skin. Arab terrorists don't have white hands.
10 ] All of the men had identical, nice, clean clothing. It looked new. This is unlikely for rogue combatants in a war zone. It is likely if someone needed some 'terrorist' clothing for a video.
11] If Zarqawi was in the video, why didn't he show his face? It is known to the US already. It would have established the video's authenticity. It would have inspired fear. So why's it covered?
12] The real Zarqawi speaks with a Jordanian accent. According to a CNN mid-eastern expert who is a fluent professional translator, this 'Zarwaqi' did not speak with a Jordanian accent. She dismissed the possibility of it being him out of hand.
13] The whole time line is completely ed up. There are many inconsistencies in the time line. I could cite at least a dozen. The most obvious is that he was 'found Monday over the weekend'
14] The 'militants' stood with a Western posture. When they moved in, their movements were rehearsed. Each knew where he was going when the action happened as if it were pre-planned.
15] Two of the 'Arab militants' brought their left hands to their faces during the video. The left hand is unclean in Arabic nations. It is used to wipe one's ass. The left hand is taboo. An Arab wouldn't eat with it or offer it to someone, they are unlikely to touch their eyes with it, it is unclean.
16] 'Zarqawi' is wearing a large gold ring. Islam reportedly forbids men to wear gold jewelry.
17] The rifles are reportedly Galil variants. These would be Israeli rifles. Arab militants wouldn't use Israeli weapons. The guns are all either Galils or Mac's.
18] Between Berg being knocked to the floor and then hacked up, the video cuts for no reason. Remember this isn't a two camera shoot, there is no reason for the video to cut. Something was cut out, or it would be continuous.
19] The website to which the video was supposedly released was down within 90 minutes. All major news organizations supposedly learned of this video and obtained copies within that time.
20 ] Berg is wearing an orange uniform identical to those at used by the US for detainies.
21] The walls and room are reportedly identical to the prison.
22] Berg is shown in a chair identical to those in the prison. If he was in an abandoned warehouse why wasn't he on looted office furniture instead. These chairs are not extremely rare, but the odds of both chairs being identical is slim.
23] The video never mentions the word 'Al Qaeda', it uses the word al qaed. These are two different words, one is a name and means 'The Base'. The other is not a name and translates as 'one who sits by and does nothing'. This translation is from the CNN arab language expert. She reports that any fluent speaker of Arabic would notice this difference.
24] Nick Berg's dad and Berg's tower company appear on a Free Republic 'enemies' list. The list isn't too long. I'm not on it under any alias I've used.
25] Nick Berg's tower company is not registered in his home state of Pennsylvania. While not a legal requirement, state officials report it would be nearly impossible to do business without registering.
26] The time code on the tape is in military time. Arabs use the standard arabic clock.
27] This video came out just when it would help the Bush regime the most. Fucktards everywhere are now using it to justify widespread US war crimes. Hardly the sort of reaction Islamic militants would desire, but obviously quite predictable.
28] One of the towers Berg worked on, the biggest and most damaged one, was near the prison.
29] No one can account for Berg's whereabouts from between April 10th (when his father believe he was killed) to May 11th the most firmly referenced of three days his body may have been found. He looks very clean and well fed to have been held prisoner by savages for over a month.
30 ] The US has not stated how his body was identified. It didn't have a head. It should have taken some time to ID.
31 ] Except for the individual reading the prepared statement, the only words said by the other 'terrorists' were "Allah Akbar" over and over. The speech was somewhat slurred. The accent differs significantly from the reader. I don't believe that they all spoke Arabic.
32 ] The speaker fumbles the transcript several times and goes back to the same page several times. It appeared he was having trouble reading his own statement.
33] During the hacking up part the video camera zooms in indistinctly just where you would expect the filmer to be trying for the most horrid details.
34] The body makes no death throws. None. Nada. Most animals, when they die, convulse.
35] Almost nothing dripped from the recently severed head. If he had just died the head should have still had a lot of blood in it. A head holds around a liter of blood in soft sponge-like tissues, unless the blood was coagulated it should have dripped for some time.
36] Berg continues to 'scream' after his windpipe has been cut through.
37] The time code actually jumps 11 hours during once splice in the video. Oops!
38] Near the end of the video, after the chanting stops, a distinctly Western voice can be heard to say what sounds like "Thy Will be Done" it then repeats itself. Hear it at Breakfornews.coms
39] Berg's body, though he was a civilian, was flown by the military to Dover Air Force Base. His parents had requested to be there when it arrived but that permission was denied. According to Department of State Publication 10391, Bureau of Consular Affairs, Revised September 1996, "The U.S. Government cannont pay to have your body buried overseas or returned to the United States." This is a publication intended for Americans living / working abroad.
40] The voice reading the statement at the beginning not only does not match the lips, but when the pages are turned and obviously lost in confussion, there is no pause. If you try to resynch the audio with the video you can not. The voice is dubbed in and poorly lip-synched.
41] The guy hacking off the head has a black hood, there is a very subtle cut at the end (after Thy Will Be Done) and the guy holding the head up is suddenly wearing a white mask. The time code jumps over a minute.
Posted by: A_Doctor247 at May 16, 2004 11:40 PM
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at what point this administration will try to "cut" the tape.....alter the tape....or perhaps even create a tape? and just when it needed it most?!!!!!
(taken from a site i've been visiting lately).
It's funny... there is so much emotional fanaticism and ignorance on this board. The above questions posted (time discrepancy, jumpsuit, time format, screaming) prove that there is something strange occurred:
(1) Why was there a break in the video as they pushed him over to his side before cutting his throat?
(2) Why did Berg not buck violently (at least his legs) while being cut... was he already dead? Only one person was holding him down... that wouldn't be enough since Berg was no small man. In the cutting scene, it was close-up not showing the rest of the body. Was someone hiding something... was he already dead?
(2) Why did his blood pour onto the floor instead of streaming out (as it normally would)... was he already dead?
(3) How did Berg (an American Jew) get clearance into Iraq which was an exceedingly dangerous place?
(3)Why did the military say he wasn't in U.S. custody? Is someone hiding something?
(4) Why isn't anyone questioning whether Berg was killed in April? What would the his executioners have done with him for a whole month (and someone not notice)?
(5) Why has this incident cooled down in the news so quickly?
99% of the people on this board are ignorant reactionaries. I'm glad someone was thinking (e.g., AH and GH)
Posted by: A_Doctor247 at May 16, 2004 10:24 PM
Reasons why things don't add up. There are a whole lot of people fooled (see posted comments above). Below is an interesting link. The truth will come out!
Source: http://topplerummy.org/berg/
1] Berg had connections to al Qaeda terrorists strong enough to be questioned by the FBI. His email was used by accused terrorist Zacharias Moussaoui.
2] The United States and the Iraqi police detained Berg for 13 days, not releasing him until his father filed suit. He was detained as a suspected Israeli spy. The US now denies it had anything to do with the detention despite correspondence to the contrary. The Iraqi police also deny any involvement in his detention. They are playing hot potato with it.
3] When Berg was detained he, a Jew, had a copy of the Koran and an anti-semetic book entitled 'The Jewish Problem'. That is just strange.
3] Berg doesn't struggle or even flinch when his head is sawed off with a western style military knife.
4] An Islamic extremist would know the proper way to behead someone. It is the chosen form of execution in Saudi Arabia and probably other Arab nations as well. It is accomplished with one clean sword stroke to the neck. The person hacking off the head obviously had a great deal of difficulty doing so, owing to the poor choice of blade and technique.
5 ] No blood spurts from his neck as he is supposed to be dieing. The amount of blood on the floor is much smaller than it should have been. He should have died from bleeding out and this would have resulted in a couple of liters of blood spurting from his neck.
6 ] No blood gets on the hand of 'Zarqawi' even though it was in front of Berg's neck when he should have been bleeding out.
7] Zarqawi is thought to be dead and is known to have an artificial leg. Clearly the man hacking off the head didn't.
8 ] Zarqawi is known to have a tattoo on the back of his left hand of three green dots. The man hacking off the head didn't have a tattoo on his hand.
9 ] All the men had nice WHITE hands. Except in the last 20-30 seconds when the face appears to have been digitally lightened, the hands are as white or whiter than Berg's skin. Arab terrorists don't have white hands.
10 ] All of the men had identical, nice, clean clothing. It looked new. This is unlikely for rogue combatants in a war zone. It is likely if someone needed some 'terrorist' clothing for a video.
11] If Zarqawi was in the video, why didn't he show his face? It is known to the US already. It would have established the video's authenticity. It would have inspired fear. So why's it covered?
12] The real Zarqawi speaks with a Jordanian accent. According to a CNN mid-eastern expert who is a fluent professional translator, this 'Zarwaqi' did not speak with a Jordanian accent. She dismissed the possibility of it being him out of hand.
13] The whole time line is completely ed up. There are many inconsistencies in the time line. I could cite at least a dozen. The most obvious is that he was 'found Monday over the weekend'
14] The 'militants' stood with a Western posture. When they moved in, their movements were rehearsed. Each knew where he was going when the action happened as if it were pre-planned.
15] Two of the 'Arab militants' brought their left hands to their faces during the video. The left hand is unclean in Arabic nations. It is used to wipe one's ass. The left hand is taboo. An Arab wouldn't eat with it or offer it to someone, they are unlikely to touch their eyes with it, it is unclean.
16] 'Zarqawi' is wearing a large gold ring. Islam reportedly forbids men to wear gold jewelry.
17] The rifles are reportedly Galil variants. These would be Israeli rifles. Arab militants wouldn't use Israeli weapons. The guns are all either Galils or Mac's.
18] Between Berg being knocked to the floor and then hacked up, the video cuts for no reason. Remember this isn't a two camera shoot, there is no reason for the video to cut. Something was cut out, or it would be continuous.
19] The website to which the video was supposedly released was down within 90 minutes. All major news organizations supposedly learned of this video and obtained copies within that time.
20 ] Berg is wearing an orange uniform identical to those at used by the US for detainies.
21] The walls and room are reportedly identical to the prison.
22] Berg is shown in a chair identical to those in the prison. If he was in an abandoned warehouse why wasn't he on looted office furniture instead. These chairs are not extremely rare, but the odds of both chairs being identical is slim.
23] The video never mentions the word 'Al Qaeda', it uses the word al qaed. These are two different words, one is a name and means 'The Base'. The other is not a name and translates as 'one who sits by and does nothing'. This translation is from the CNN arab language expert. She reports that any fluent speaker of Arabic would notice this difference.
24] Nick Berg's dad and Berg's tower company appear on a Free Republic 'enemies' list. The list isn't too long. I'm not on it under any alias I've used.
25] Nick Berg's tower company is not registered in his home state of Pennsylvania. While not a legal requirement, state officials report it would be nearly impossible to do business without registering.
26] The time code on the tape is in military time. Arabs use the standard arabic clock.
27] This video came out just when it would help the Bush regime the most. Fucktards everywhere are now using it to justify widespread US war crimes. Hardly the sort of reaction Islamic militants would desire, but obviously quite predictable.
28] One of the towers Berg worked on, the biggest and most damaged one, was near the prison.
29] No one can account for Berg's whereabouts from between April 10th (when his father believe he was killed) to May 11th the most firmly referenced of three days his body may have been found. He looks very clean and well fed to have been held prisoner by savages for over a month.
30 ] The US has not stated how his body was identified. It didn't have a head. It should have taken some time to ID.
31 ] Except for the individual reading the prepared statement, the only words said by the other 'terrorists' were "Allah Akbar" over and over. The speech was somewhat slurred. The accent differs significantly from the reader. I don't believe that they all spoke Arabic.
32 ] The speaker fumbles the transcript several times and goes back to the same page several times. It appeared he was having trouble reading his own statement.
33] During the hacking up part the video camera zooms in indistinctly just where you would expect the filmer to be trying for the most horrid details.
34] The body makes no death throws. None. Nada. Most animals, when they die, convulse.
35] Almost nothing dripped from the recently severed head. If he had just died the head should have still had a lot of blood in it. A head holds around a liter of blood in soft sponge-like tissues, unless the blood was coagulated it should have dripped for some time.
36] Berg continues to 'scream' after his windpipe has been cut through.
37] The time code actually jumps 11 hours during once splice in the video. Oops!
38] Near the end of the video, after the chanting stops, a distinctly Western voice can be heard to say what sounds like "Thy Will be Done" it then repeats itself. Hear it at Breakfornews.coms
39] Berg's body, though he was a civilian, was flown by the military to Dover Air Force Base. His parents had requested to be there when it arrived but that permission was denied. According to Department of State Publication 10391, Bureau of Consular Affairs, Revised September 1996, "The U.S. Government cannont pay to have your body buried overseas or returned to the United States." This is a publication intended for Americans living / working abroad.
40] The voice reading the statement at the beginning not only does not match the lips, but when the pages are turned and obviously lost in confussion, there is no pause. If you try to resynch the audio with the video you can not. The voice is dubbed in and poorly lip-synched.
41] The guy hacking off the head has a black hood, there is a very subtle cut at the end (after Thy Will Be Done) and the guy holding the head up is suddenly wearing a white mask. The time code jumps over a minute.
Posted by: A_Doctor247 at May 16, 2004 11:40 PM
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Message 10/37 17-May-04 @ 09:12 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
Sure, Berg was killed by the CIA...uhuh...and the jews (who all didn't show up at work on
911) flew those planes into the WTC.
I find it sickening that some people rather resort to fantasy instead of acknowledging the
truth.
911) flew those planes into the WTC.
I find it sickening that some people rather resort to fantasy instead of acknowledging the
truth.
Message 11/37 17-May-04 @ 12:57 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
And the truth is?
Message 12/37 17-May-04 @ 03:09 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
no bastiaan...they had al queda fly those planes.
no problem there.
but good to see you back getting disgusted with us.
why do you not try to address the issues of the gold ring on white hands?
....us miltary parade-stance...time-lags in video....a slump lifeless near-bloodless beheading?
you just go straight to the...oh...no...not my son...not my son.
we can all get emotional (and believe me we do)
but let's deal with the facts surrounding nick berg's death....
if you're at all capable of doing so.
no problem there.
but good to see you back getting disgusted with us.
why do you not try to address the issues of the gold ring on white hands?
....us miltary parade-stance...time-lags in video....a slump lifeless near-bloodless beheading?
you just go straight to the...oh...no...not my son...not my son.
we can all get emotional (and believe me we do)
but let's deal with the facts surrounding nick berg's death....
if you're at all capable of doing so.
Message 13/37 17-May-04 @ 03:28 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
damn, I just lost the baby gravy over that photo of Jordan, but ended up leaving a liquid bookmark right on Tim Russerts face. The wind must of caught it in mid fling.
Message 14/37 17-May-04 @ 04:11 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
you'd make a good pirate. anyone got a yacht?
Message 15/37 18-May-04 @ 04:43 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
"I find it sickening that some people rather resort to fantasy instead of acknowledging the
truth."
I find it equally sickening that some people can't see beyond the end of their own nose.
truth."
I find it equally sickening that some people can't see beyond the end of their own nose.
Message 16/37 18-May-04 @ 07:21 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
you have to realize some people's noses are quite seriously
a frigging LOOOoooooooooNG thing and not to be underestimated.
a frigging LOOOoooooooooNG thing and not to be underestimated.
Message 17/37 18-May-04 @ 09:07 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
quote
but good to see you back getting disgusted with us.
but good to see you back getting disgusted with us.
Who's 'us'? Do you feel addressed by my remark?
quote
why do you not try to address the issues of the gold ring on white hands?
why do you not try to address the issues of the gold ring on white hands?
Many Muslims are white. Many Muslims wear golden rings. Sheesh: even those
hijackers of 911 were caught drinking alcohol before 911.
quote
....us miltary parade-stance...
....us miltary parade-stance...
99% of all (para-) military or wannabe military would stand like that. The fact that you call
it US military stance instead of just military stance is a clear sign of your bias.
quote
time-lags in video....
time-lags in video....
2 cameras were used: one on a stand one operated by hand. Both cameras had a
different time on them. Of course the video was edited: the sound of one video can be
heard whilst the other is playing.
quote
a slump lifeless near-bloodless beheading?
you just go straight to the...oh...no...not my son...not my son.
a slump lifeless near-bloodless beheading?
you just go straight to the...oh...no...not my son...not my son.
The body talked and moved and there's plenty of blood. The vid I saw was pretty low
quality but I spotted a hell of a lot of blood.
Try again and please do tell me how any of these points point in the direction of the US
govt or the CIA as you seem to imply.
Message 18/37 18-May-04 @ 04:25 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
bastiaan....
i'll let you point your own way.
i'm only making certain assertions known for what they are...or aren't.
if it's a black-and-white world to you and you feel comfortable that "the good guys"
aren't capable of a nasty deed.....then go forth with that comprehension.
i hope you're right but a lifetime of observation and research would show that your
illusions are more dangerous than helpful.
i'll let you point your own way.
i'm only making certain assertions known for what they are...or aren't.
if it's a black-and-white world to you and you feel comfortable that "the good guys"
aren't capable of a nasty deed.....then go forth with that comprehension.
i hope you're right but a lifetime of observation and research would show that your
illusions are more dangerous than helpful.
Message 19/37 18-May-04 @ 05:46 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
hmm.. thik it's safe to say anyone wearing gold is working for the u.s. in some sense.
Message 21/37 19-May-04 @ 12:08 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
it's my belief in each person lies action-man.
if we are lucky we never have to put on that outfit....unlike those grunts who enlisted to put on taht outfit...just to do someone else's deed.
and for this they'll suffer a lifteime of guilt remorse and bad dreams and bad self-concept..
i've been attacked numerous times for speaking out.
i've been in what some might call small-scale riots.
i've seen people hurt....even seriously.
if i was lucky it was them at the end of my boot and not me at the end of theirs.
today it's automatics and fast-moving getaways.
it's no way to live or dream of living.
even beginning to wave that flag when the tyronassaurus is ready to take a dive
on it's own is pretentious if not dangerous.....to say the least.
it's like having an unruly guest who's much larger and more ornery than everyone else......starting trouble and somehow after a few fists and screaming and some fast-talking crazy emotional sense being talked to the guy...you get him to leave after a decent head-rush and someone saying something to him which made him feel something...perhaps intelligence?.
but some idiot has to knock him in the head one more time as he's leaving. guaranteed you're gonna have problems with him for quite awhile longer and he may just never ever come round to your way of thinking..
let's keep action-man within if at all possible.
he's a good guy.
he looks good in tights.
he really wants to help.
but america just ain't there now.
we want him to keep lifting and say i know i can i know i can....
but you'd best pray to god he never has to show himself.....unless you truly are pretensious
enough to think that will buy you anything more than just absolute blood and gore....in a way we haven't even begun to imagine yet.
not george washington.
not robert e. lee.
your name...in the end...will be spit....and forgotten and your death much-hastened to be sure.
dust. nothing. a momentary thought of a thought of a memory.
do the math.
and after all that i'll still believe in hope for peace.
mcc>
if we are lucky we never have to put on that outfit....unlike those grunts who enlisted to put on taht outfit...just to do someone else's deed.
and for this they'll suffer a lifteime of guilt remorse and bad dreams and bad self-concept..
i've been attacked numerous times for speaking out.
i've been in what some might call small-scale riots.
i've seen people hurt....even seriously.
if i was lucky it was them at the end of my boot and not me at the end of theirs.
today it's automatics and fast-moving getaways.
it's no way to live or dream of living.
even beginning to wave that flag when the tyronassaurus is ready to take a dive
on it's own is pretentious if not dangerous.....to say the least.
it's like having an unruly guest who's much larger and more ornery than everyone else......starting trouble and somehow after a few fists and screaming and some fast-talking crazy emotional sense being talked to the guy...you get him to leave after a decent head-rush and someone saying something to him which made him feel something...perhaps intelligence?.
but some idiot has to knock him in the head one more time as he's leaving. guaranteed you're gonna have problems with him for quite awhile longer and he may just never ever come round to your way of thinking..
let's keep action-man within if at all possible.
he's a good guy.
he looks good in tights.
he really wants to help.
but america just ain't there now.
we want him to keep lifting and say i know i can i know i can....
but you'd best pray to god he never has to show himself.....unless you truly are pretensious
enough to think that will buy you anything more than just absolute blood and gore....in a way we haven't even begun to imagine yet.
not george washington.
not robert e. lee.
your name...in the end...will be spit....and forgotten and your death much-hastened to be sure.
dust. nothing. a momentary thought of a thought of a memory.
do the math.
and after all that i'll still believe in hope for peace.
mcc>
Message 22/37 19-May-04 @ 12:09 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
wrong thread....sorry....
kick me here XXX.
kick me here XXX.
Message 23/37 19-May-04 @ 12:36 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
bush couldn't control his anger...his rage at saddam and others.
in so opposing terrorism...he himself became one> if he wasn't one already.
that should be lesson enough for us all.
in so opposing terrorism...he himself became one> if he wasn't one already.
that should be lesson enough for us all.
Message 24/37 19-May-04 @ 01:47 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
bastiaan....
i'll let you point your own way.
i'm only making certain assertions known for what they are...or aren't.
i'll let you point your own way.
i'm only making certain assertions known for what they are...or aren't.
No you’re not only doing that: you point your finger at ‘our own government’ (which is not
mine), and post ‘proofs’ to go with it. None of these proofs hold water. And yes, I am sick
of people like A_Doctor247 and those that copy him without critical thought.
You should try that once: critical thought…it may give you a strange sensation for a while
but I will most definitely help you see the world much clearer. Or maybe it won’t, but it will
set you free.
quote
if it's a black-and-white world to you and you feel comfortable that "the good guys"
aren't capable of a nasty deed.....then go forth with that comprehension.
if it's a black-and-white world to you and you feel comfortable that "the good guys"
aren't capable of a nasty deed.....then go forth with that comprehension.
Don’t be such a childish brat. I hold no such world visions (or would you care to quote me
having ever said such a thing). You’re cheap rethoric won’t do you good.
quote
i hope you're right but a lifetime of observation and research would show that your
illusions are more dangerous than helpful
i hope you're right but a lifetime of observation and research would show that your
illusions are more dangerous than helpful
Please name one of my ‘illusions’ and tell me why they are wrong. With you being such an
omniscient person, having full knowledge of my world vision and all this should be a piece
of cake.
Tell me, were there any other ‘mysteries’ in that tape that point to ‘our own government’
(as you yourself insinuated).
Message 25/37 19-May-04 @ 04:12 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
i am unable to suggest that it's IMPOSSIBLE for my own government
to be involved in such matters.
i also believe there WAS genuine systemic cover-up at abu ghraib.
just as i believe it was americans....often tied directly or indirectly to our government
which killed jfk...bobby kennedy...malcolm x and martin luther king jr.
i do believe we funded governemental death sqauds in el salvador and ran cia operations to destabilize nicaragua and countless other nations.
i believe americans are able to find themselves in the cross-fire of such
conflicts.
the 4 nuns in el salvador.
this sort of stuff is not new.
i'd rather be wrong and find out we were NOT responsible for berg's beheading...
than to somehow know we were responsible and have it not even considered a possibility worth examining.
to be involved in such matters.
i also believe there WAS genuine systemic cover-up at abu ghraib.
just as i believe it was americans....often tied directly or indirectly to our government
which killed jfk...bobby kennedy...malcolm x and martin luther king jr.
i do believe we funded governemental death sqauds in el salvador and ran cia operations to destabilize nicaragua and countless other nations.
i believe americans are able to find themselves in the cross-fire of such
conflicts.
the 4 nuns in el salvador.
this sort of stuff is not new.
i'd rather be wrong and find out we were NOT responsible for berg's beheading...
than to somehow know we were responsible and have it not even considered a possibility worth examining.
Message 26/37 19-May-04 @ 06:14 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
"bush couldn't control his anger...his rage at saddam and others.
in so opposing terrorism...he himself became one> if he wasn't one already.
that should be lesson enough for us all."
where do you get this? i don't see some huge-power-laden mentality like bush getting hopped up on anger. irl i don't see anger having much to do with power plays, since that's usually lethal.. bush was a terrorist before.. (americans are born with terrorism in their souls) there was no rage, just cool, collected power moves towards saddam. he never "opposed terrorism," he did shit and told the american public how to think of it, eg. "hey, i'm opposing terrorism when i make this play here"
you seriously think that even once, since bush has been in office the thought "what must i do here to minimise harm to americans" has crossed his mind? (i mean, anything beyond "for p.r." et c.. you know, for the actual sake of preventing harm..)
do you want to believe that he is really good or something? is this your hope you're on about?
when you treat people like shit, one more doesn't mean the slightest iota. dude's got no problem being who he is.
in so opposing terrorism...he himself became one> if he wasn't one already.
that should be lesson enough for us all."
where do you get this? i don't see some huge-power-laden mentality like bush getting hopped up on anger. irl i don't see anger having much to do with power plays, since that's usually lethal.. bush was a terrorist before.. (americans are born with terrorism in their souls) there was no rage, just cool, collected power moves towards saddam. he never "opposed terrorism," he did shit and told the american public how to think of it, eg. "hey, i'm opposing terrorism when i make this play here"
you seriously think that even once, since bush has been in office the thought "what must i do here to minimise harm to americans" has crossed his mind? (i mean, anything beyond "for p.r." et c.. you know, for the actual sake of preventing harm..)
do you want to believe that he is really good or something? is this your hope you're on about?
when you treat people like shit, one more doesn't mean the slightest iota. dude's got no problem being who he is.
Message 28/37 20-May-04 @ 02:52 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
well....bush 2 had no problem being who he was up until about a week or 2 ago.
the guy is psyched-up thinking he's the savior of the "free western world".
he's also pissed his dad got punked by the guy dad hired to keep iraq in place.
in that sense, it's very personal. dna is involved.
for you to suggest he isn't capable of emotion...is simply wrong.
he pretends he's tough and unemotional....and rational.....but he's none of those things.
mommy told him he's the savior and he loves mommy.
and daddy> and everything white judeo-christian america stands for. and if he can have the rices and powells and sanchezes in on the play.....wow.....who would dare oppose us?
my hope has nothing to do with that.
keep cool x.
that's your job after all.....not mine.
the guy is psyched-up thinking he's the savior of the "free western world".
he's also pissed his dad got punked by the guy dad hired to keep iraq in place.
in that sense, it's very personal. dna is involved.
for you to suggest he isn't capable of emotion...is simply wrong.
he pretends he's tough and unemotional....and rational.....but he's none of those things.
mommy told him he's the savior and he loves mommy.
and daddy> and everything white judeo-christian america stands for. and if he can have the rices and powells and sanchezes in on the play.....wow.....who would dare oppose us?
my hope has nothing to do with that.
keep cool x.
that's your job after all.....not mine.
Message 29/37 20-May-04 @ 04:52 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
an article which appeared at alt.net.org.
When Bonesmen Fight
By Tom Hayden, Yale Politic
May 18, 2004
I hope some journalist has the guts to ask John Kerry (Skull and Bones, 1965) and George Bush (Skull and Bones, 1967) whether they have any qualms about belonging to a secret, oath-bound network since their college days. Did they discuss Skull and Bones in code when President Bush called Senator Kerry to congratulate him on his primary victories? Will they agree not to leave the room if the reporter blurts out "322", coded references to Demosthene's birthday and Skull and Bones' founding.
Am I scratching the blackboard yet, dear reader? Or are you smugly dismissing these questions as paranoid and unsophisticated?
I don't consider myself a conspiracy nut, but is it really all right that four decades after the egalitarian Sixties, and some 225 years since the Declaration of Independence, the American voters' choices in 2004 are two Bonesmen?
The lesson is that aristocracy still survives democracy.
I was a member of a secret society during the same era as Bush and Kerry, at the University of Michigan, and can testify that these are profoundly lasting experiences. As a junior, I was tapped for the Druids, which involved a two-day ritual that included being stripped to my underpants, pelted with eggs, smeared with red dye and tied to a campus tree. These humiliations signified my rebirth from lowly student journalist to Big Man on Campus.
Soon, however, I became alienated. None of the bonding could make me feel I actually belonged. Perhaps I was an outsider by nature, an Irish Catholic descendant of immigrants, first in my family to attend university. The clubbiness had one purpose, as a source told Alexandra Robbins for her book on Skull and Bones. It was "to make the other people who didn't get in feel bad." But even as an insider, I felt bad, undeserving, resentful.
When I was tapped in my senior year for the most prestigious secret society, Michigauma, I decided instead to hide out in a girlfriend's apartment, becoming the first refusenik in Michigauma history. But I still felt like something was wrong with me, that I didn't have the right stuff, that I was blowing my future.
In summer 1960, I experienced the same self-doubt at the national convention of the U.S. National Student Association, which then was controlled by an older clique of student leaders who seemed, as they say, to the manor born. On the one hand, ambition inclined me to challenge the clique by running for national affairs vice president, a path I would eventually follow twenty years later. On the other hand, the radical civil rights and student movements, like the fledgling Students for a Democratic Society, were pulling at my heart. Should I work within the establishment or create something new and risky?
One night I came across a yellow pad left on a desk by the NSA leadership. At the top of a chart was written "Control Group". On the left was my name and that of Alan Haber, a founder of SDS. On the right was a box marked "YAF" – Young Americans for Freedom, the conservative group founded at Yale by William F. Buckley (Bones 1950).
Seven years later, it was revealed that the CIA secretly controlled and funded NSA, and that former editors of the Michigan Daily were among the spooks they recruited. I went south as a Freedom Rider and drafted the SDS Port Huron Statement.
In those years, George Bush was a Yale cheerleader and devoted Deke. John Kerry became a Navy lieutenant shooting up the Mekong Delta. Bush never seemed to question authority, while Kerry's loyalties were shaken by war. But they both belonged to the vast, safe, surreptitious Affirmative Action Program for old boys.
It seems like a lifetime since those days, but we still suffer from many gaps based on privilege. The political system is a moneyed oligarchy underneath its democratic trappings. The vast majority of voters are like fans in the bleachers: We participate from the cheap seats, supposed to enjoy our place, and vote for whichever Bonesman we prefer. Our taxes even subsidize their corporate box seats.
Sometimes Bonesman fight over status. For instance, about 75 years ago, Dwight Davis, U.S. secretary of war, created the Davis Cup, and George H. Walker, grandfather of George W., volleyed back by establishing the Walker Cup. The differences today between Bush and Kerry are about as serious as they get, short of a duel. Karl Marx (London School of Economics) would describe the split a contradiction in the ruling class. Bush is the unilateral builder of empire, while Kerry stands for the multilateral alliances long preferred by most Bonesmen. Though both the Cowboy and the Brahmin may be quarreling members of the same old club, their differences are existential for the rest of us.
Ralph Nader doesn't see this. Instead, he argues that the two parties are a duopoly within the same plutocracy. Maybe Nader is nursing resentment over not being tapped himself, but his is a dangerous blindness. The differences between Bush and Kerry over Supreme Court appointments, religious fundamentalism, civil rights, the environment, John Ashcroft and the future of Iraq are fundamental, dividing the two parties at the constituency level. Bush genuflects to the Christian Right while Kerry sings Kumbaya. The Bush people are scary and destabilizing, which is why the CIA types seem to prefer Kerry (covertly, of course). For the record, this November I am voting with the CIA. They represent the lesser evil in the choices before us.
But like Ralph Nader, I want democracy to mean more than a choice between two candidates chosen by dueling Bonesmen and their major donors.
I still stand for participatory democracy, the original 1962 vision of the SDS, which grew from our generation's experience in organizing among the excluded, from the Deep South to the Peace Corps. Students in those days were drafted for war, but considered too immature to vote. Southern blacks and Mexican immigrants could be sharecroppers in the fields, but not equal citizens in the ballot box. For us, democracy meant who had the most votes, not who controlled the most money. It meant the free flow of information, not suffocation under corporate advertising and media.
We have always wanted more than the right to choose between two candidates already vetted by the establishment. We wanted a more direct voice in the decisions that affected our lives. We wanted a democracy of participation, not a democracy regulated by secret societies. We wanted all the closets emptied.
We are a more open and democratic country as a result of the Sixties and earlier generations of radicals. We owe the Abolitionists, not merely Abraham Lincoln, for the end of slavery, the suffragettes for the right to vote, the populists for regulation of Wall Street, the industrial strikers for collective bargaining, the environmentalists for cleaner air and water. In this election, the anti-war and global justice movements have helped shape the agenda over Iraq and trade. And the gay-lesbian community is turning marriage into civil disobedience.
Yet, it remains the peculiar character of America's elite to absorb reform from below while remaining atop the pyramids of power. When a majority of Americans still feel inferior to Ivy League candidates, or identify vicariously with their dramas, we do not live in a democracy psychologically. That must eventually change. Closeted dynasties should have no moral legitimacy in a democracy – which is why they have become increasingly secret.
Two years ago, students at the University of Michigan broke into, occupied and exposed the secret space of Michigauma, finding stolen Indian artifacts among the items hidden there. Michigauma moved off campus. When I heard the news, I wished I'd done that long ago instead of making such a private and ambiguous protest. It took a new generation to smash the old idols. Maybe Leonard Cohen is right, democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
Tom Hayden was a leader of the student, civil rights, peace and environmental movements of the 1960s. He served 18 years in the California legislature, where he chaired labor, higher education and natural resources committees. He is the author of ten books, including "Street Wars" (New Press, 2004). He is a professor at Occidental College, Los Angeles, and was a visiting fellow at Harvard's Institute of Politics last fall.
« Home « Top Stories
When Bonesmen Fight
By Tom Hayden, Yale Politic
May 18, 2004
I hope some journalist has the guts to ask John Kerry (Skull and Bones, 1965) and George Bush (Skull and Bones, 1967) whether they have any qualms about belonging to a secret, oath-bound network since their college days. Did they discuss Skull and Bones in code when President Bush called Senator Kerry to congratulate him on his primary victories? Will they agree not to leave the room if the reporter blurts out "322", coded references to Demosthene's birthday and Skull and Bones' founding.
Am I scratching the blackboard yet, dear reader? Or are you smugly dismissing these questions as paranoid and unsophisticated?
I don't consider myself a conspiracy nut, but is it really all right that four decades after the egalitarian Sixties, and some 225 years since the Declaration of Independence, the American voters' choices in 2004 are two Bonesmen?
The lesson is that aristocracy still survives democracy.
I was a member of a secret society during the same era as Bush and Kerry, at the University of Michigan, and can testify that these are profoundly lasting experiences. As a junior, I was tapped for the Druids, which involved a two-day ritual that included being stripped to my underpants, pelted with eggs, smeared with red dye and tied to a campus tree. These humiliations signified my rebirth from lowly student journalist to Big Man on Campus.
Soon, however, I became alienated. None of the bonding could make me feel I actually belonged. Perhaps I was an outsider by nature, an Irish Catholic descendant of immigrants, first in my family to attend university. The clubbiness had one purpose, as a source told Alexandra Robbins for her book on Skull and Bones. It was "to make the other people who didn't get in feel bad." But even as an insider, I felt bad, undeserving, resentful.
When I was tapped in my senior year for the most prestigious secret society, Michigauma, I decided instead to hide out in a girlfriend's apartment, becoming the first refusenik in Michigauma history. But I still felt like something was wrong with me, that I didn't have the right stuff, that I was blowing my future.
In summer 1960, I experienced the same self-doubt at the national convention of the U.S. National Student Association, which then was controlled by an older clique of student leaders who seemed, as they say, to the manor born. On the one hand, ambition inclined me to challenge the clique by running for national affairs vice president, a path I would eventually follow twenty years later. On the other hand, the radical civil rights and student movements, like the fledgling Students for a Democratic Society, were pulling at my heart. Should I work within the establishment or create something new and risky?
One night I came across a yellow pad left on a desk by the NSA leadership. At the top of a chart was written "Control Group". On the left was my name and that of Alan Haber, a founder of SDS. On the right was a box marked "YAF" – Young Americans for Freedom, the conservative group founded at Yale by William F. Buckley (Bones 1950).
Seven years later, it was revealed that the CIA secretly controlled and funded NSA, and that former editors of the Michigan Daily were among the spooks they recruited. I went south as a Freedom Rider and drafted the SDS Port Huron Statement.
In those years, George Bush was a Yale cheerleader and devoted Deke. John Kerry became a Navy lieutenant shooting up the Mekong Delta. Bush never seemed to question authority, while Kerry's loyalties were shaken by war. But they both belonged to the vast, safe, surreptitious Affirmative Action Program for old boys.
It seems like a lifetime since those days, but we still suffer from many gaps based on privilege. The political system is a moneyed oligarchy underneath its democratic trappings. The vast majority of voters are like fans in the bleachers: We participate from the cheap seats, supposed to enjoy our place, and vote for whichever Bonesman we prefer. Our taxes even subsidize their corporate box seats.
Sometimes Bonesman fight over status. For instance, about 75 years ago, Dwight Davis, U.S. secretary of war, created the Davis Cup, and George H. Walker, grandfather of George W., volleyed back by establishing the Walker Cup. The differences today between Bush and Kerry are about as serious as they get, short of a duel. Karl Marx (London School of Economics) would describe the split a contradiction in the ruling class. Bush is the unilateral builder of empire, while Kerry stands for the multilateral alliances long preferred by most Bonesmen. Though both the Cowboy and the Brahmin may be quarreling members of the same old club, their differences are existential for the rest of us.
Ralph Nader doesn't see this. Instead, he argues that the two parties are a duopoly within the same plutocracy. Maybe Nader is nursing resentment over not being tapped himself, but his is a dangerous blindness. The differences between Bush and Kerry over Supreme Court appointments, religious fundamentalism, civil rights, the environment, John Ashcroft and the future of Iraq are fundamental, dividing the two parties at the constituency level. Bush genuflects to the Christian Right while Kerry sings Kumbaya. The Bush people are scary and destabilizing, which is why the CIA types seem to prefer Kerry (covertly, of course). For the record, this November I am voting with the CIA. They represent the lesser evil in the choices before us.
But like Ralph Nader, I want democracy to mean more than a choice between two candidates chosen by dueling Bonesmen and their major donors.
I still stand for participatory democracy, the original 1962 vision of the SDS, which grew from our generation's experience in organizing among the excluded, from the Deep South to the Peace Corps. Students in those days were drafted for war, but considered too immature to vote. Southern blacks and Mexican immigrants could be sharecroppers in the fields, but not equal citizens in the ballot box. For us, democracy meant who had the most votes, not who controlled the most money. It meant the free flow of information, not suffocation under corporate advertising and media.
We have always wanted more than the right to choose between two candidates already vetted by the establishment. We wanted a more direct voice in the decisions that affected our lives. We wanted a democracy of participation, not a democracy regulated by secret societies. We wanted all the closets emptied.
We are a more open and democratic country as a result of the Sixties and earlier generations of radicals. We owe the Abolitionists, not merely Abraham Lincoln, for the end of slavery, the suffragettes for the right to vote, the populists for regulation of Wall Street, the industrial strikers for collective bargaining, the environmentalists for cleaner air and water. In this election, the anti-war and global justice movements have helped shape the agenda over Iraq and trade. And the gay-lesbian community is turning marriage into civil disobedience.
Yet, it remains the peculiar character of America's elite to absorb reform from below while remaining atop the pyramids of power. When a majority of Americans still feel inferior to Ivy League candidates, or identify vicariously with their dramas, we do not live in a democracy psychologically. That must eventually change. Closeted dynasties should have no moral legitimacy in a democracy – which is why they have become increasingly secret.
Two years ago, students at the University of Michigan broke into, occupied and exposed the secret space of Michigauma, finding stolen Indian artifacts among the items hidden there. Michigauma moved off campus. When I heard the news, I wished I'd done that long ago instead of making such a private and ambiguous protest. It took a new generation to smash the old idols. Maybe Leonard Cohen is right, democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
Tom Hayden was a leader of the student, civil rights, peace and environmental movements of the 1960s. He served 18 years in the California legislature, where he chaired labor, higher education and natural resources committees. He is the author of ten books, including "Street Wars" (New Press, 2004). He is a professor at Occidental College, Los Angeles, and was a visiting fellow at Harvard's Institute of Politics last fall.
« Home « Top Stories
Message 30/37 20-May-04 @ 11:16 AM Edit: 20-May-04 | 11:36 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
"guy is psyched-up thinking he's the savior of the "free western world"."
No no no no. Think of the reverse. What would he have to be saying to allow that to happen. The happening is first and the words, policy and other stuffing is the result of the that. If you believe anything else then you are buying the cover story. It really is all misdirection, I think it has always been this way, where the problem is is that the scale of the action is not being met by truley creative manipulation and since that must happen they are, for the first time, pulling very strong levers (sin, evil, war on terror) which are absolutely relative and so very insubstancial. This means that we move away from demonstrable benefit and into relativistic success. In some ways these fears being manipulated must already be there but I think its very dangerous to invoke and reinforce them. That is why the concept of a 'war on terror' as a mechanism is unforgivable, it introduces terror - do you see? And since those who go can be those who come back it means a world of pain (possibly too much) to find (or want) attonement. I mean the man could be taking us to hell.
Sorry for religeous language but reading Clive Barker Books of Blood and thats some oppressive shit
No no no no. Think of the reverse. What would he have to be saying to allow that to happen. The happening is first and the words, policy and other stuffing is the result of the that. If you believe anything else then you are buying the cover story. It really is all misdirection, I think it has always been this way, where the problem is is that the scale of the action is not being met by truley creative manipulation and since that must happen they are, for the first time, pulling very strong levers (sin, evil, war on terror) which are absolutely relative and so very insubstancial. This means that we move away from demonstrable benefit and into relativistic success. In some ways these fears being manipulated must already be there but I think its very dangerous to invoke and reinforce them. That is why the concept of a 'war on terror' as a mechanism is unforgivable, it introduces terror - do you see? And since those who go can be those who come back it means a world of pain (possibly too much) to find (or want) attonement. I mean the man could be taking us to hell.
Sorry for religeous language but reading Clive Barker Books of Blood and thats some oppressive shit
Message 32/37 20-May-04 @ 02:23 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
cheddar: I mean the man could be taking us to hell.
c'mon cheds....i think we've reached that point already in a way
that only the iraqis and our boys there can truly know.
the fact that recent events have slowed bush and his machine down doesn't discount the fact that great crimes have been committed against a people we've been claiming to liberate.
with you and i....i feel we're often postured for argument while agreement reigns underneath.
then again it's hard to say since i can't understand you half the time.
that's not new though.
but we're getting better.
c'mon cheds....i think we've reached that point already in a way
that only the iraqis and our boys there can truly know.
the fact that recent events have slowed bush and his machine down doesn't discount the fact that great crimes have been committed against a people we've been claiming to liberate.
with you and i....i feel we're often postured for argument while agreement reigns underneath.
then again it's hard to say since i can't understand you half the time.
that's not new though.
but we're getting better.
Message 33/37 20-May-04 @ 05:42 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
yeah, that Frodo gaga was pretty good
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 34/37 20-May-04 @ 06:19 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
think about it, clay - sloppy motions and power are soon divorced. you know what power is like.. you don't throw your anger at an opponent, you throw your intellect at them, because that will fuck them up 10x worse tomorrow than your anger would today. you see that happen with every parochial child :p
i don't see the whole picture (thank goodness) but i can't imagine that bush really squirms when he portrays a squirming man for the nation. a yeast culture doesn't care what sugar thinks, and bush doesn't care if he looks on his way in or out, because he's there now. cheddars 'buying the cover story' for 20.
i don't see the whole picture (thank goodness) but i can't imagine that bush really squirms when he portrays a squirming man for the nation. a yeast culture doesn't care what sugar thinks, and bush doesn't care if he looks on his way in or out, because he's there now. cheddars 'buying the cover story' for 20.
Message 35/37 21-May-04 @ 03:11 AM - RE: Powell interview cut......
i read something that bush once said once that still disturbs me everytime i think about it.
and it kind of illustrates your point...x.
here, we have a man who can comically flap his arms like a little bird the first time he and his cabinet enter his main strategy-room (i forget the name of the room)....this plucky god-chosen force... telling one of his advisor, while weighing the pros and cons of attacking iraq....the potential for casualties>
"you know i don't enjoy hugging the widows".
and this, at a time before the war even started...so how does he know what THAT feels like?
it's like some dumb thing he heard someone say at one time that he thinks makes him sound...seasoned?...experienced? compassionate?
as if he almost didn't mind the fact that kids would be missing a father...wives their husbands..parents their kids and so on.
what he didn't like...the way he expressed it...and the way i still hear it today
is that HE doesn't like hugging the widows. it bugs him to have to do this.
even though he's the one who sends them.
no...x...you're right...i don't think he sees the human reality of it at all.
only HIS place in it.....at the top.
guaranteed he had no idea as to heighths from which he will drop.
i had an old phrase strike me today as i was setting tile in this bathroom....
and it was "give em enough rope"......
as in "give em enough rope and he'll surely be able to hang himself with it."
and it kind of illustrates your point...x.
here, we have a man who can comically flap his arms like a little bird the first time he and his cabinet enter his main strategy-room (i forget the name of the room)....this plucky god-chosen force... telling one of his advisor, while weighing the pros and cons of attacking iraq....the potential for casualties>
"you know i don't enjoy hugging the widows".
and this, at a time before the war even started...so how does he know what THAT feels like?
it's like some dumb thing he heard someone say at one time that he thinks makes him sound...seasoned?...experienced? compassionate?
as if he almost didn't mind the fact that kids would be missing a father...wives their husbands..parents their kids and so on.
what he didn't like...the way he expressed it...and the way i still hear it today
is that HE doesn't like hugging the widows. it bugs him to have to do this.
even though he's the one who sends them.
no...x...you're right...i don't think he sees the human reality of it at all.
only HIS place in it.....at the top.
guaranteed he had no idea as to heighths from which he will drop.
i had an old phrase strike me today as i was setting tile in this bathroom....
and it was "give em enough rope"......
as in "give em enough rope and he'll surely be able to hang himself with it."
Message 36/37 21-May-04 @ 04:54 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
so we would hope :p nasty phrase, must've picked it up from daddy or from kodos or someone.
at wha point does a despot sit their child on their knee and explain to them about huggin widows. :p
at wha point does a despot sit their child on their knee and explain to them about huggin widows. :p
Message 37/37 21-May-04 @ 08:32 PM - RE: Powell interview cut......
the cia walked in and out of that kid's sandbox as if it were a gentle breeze.
mommy pointed to the preacher who was pointing to young george...
and he was listening.
and he heard.
take this sword.
mommy pointed to the preacher who was pointing to young george...
and he was listening.
and he heard.
take this sword.
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