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Forums - The lounge
Subject: "I didn't know you couldn't......"
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 15
Original Message Date: 28-Apr-04 @ 09:41 PM Edit: 28-Apr-04 | 09:42 PM - "I didn't know you couldn't.......
...punch POWs in the face!?!"
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
this is absurd! what kind of fucking dolts do we have in the military anyhow?
quote
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed
April 28, 2004
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison.
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )
(CBS) A few weeks ago, the U.S. Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq had been removed from duty, and six of them were facing court martial for mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the infamous prison where Saddam Hussein and his henchmen tortured and executed Iraqis for decades.
60 Minutes II has obtained photographs of what was happening in Abu Ghraib. The photos show American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
In his Wednesday morning briefing, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the photographs may be shown in Dan Rather's report on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The discovery of the photographs by the Army led to an investigation which concluded that there were problems at the prison from the general in charge of the prison, to the military police guarding the prisoners. An investigation into abuse claims started in January, after a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse.
Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad, told Correspondent Dan Rather: "We're appalled...these are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down....We expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy...and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Kimmitt says even though charges have been filed against the six soldiers, a more general investigation continues into how prisoners are interrogated at the prison. One of the soldiers who is now facing court martial, Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.
"We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said.
Frederick is charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things.
Frederick wrote home to his family about the treatment of prisoners. He said in an e-mail: "We helped getting them to talk with the way we handle them. We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours."
The pictures 60 Minutes II obtained show an Iraqi prisoner who, according to the U.S. Army, was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. That prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. In another photograph, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid - one body had a slur written in English on his skin.
Despite the charges against American soldiers, Kimmitt says Americans shouldn't lose faith in the military – since the investigation is focused on a small number of soldiers, and doesn't reflect the conduct of the vast majority of U.S. forces.
"Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day we love our soldiers but frankly, somedays we're not always proud of our soldiers...It's a small, small minority of people we're talking about here, less than a dozen out of the 150,000 who are serving honorably and proudly over here....The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals but by God it doesn't reflect my army."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
Message 41/147 02-May-04 @ 12:42 AM - RE:
plus he's got a wife and 2 sons at home and he'll get killed in iraq.
it's absolutely not the job he wants.
he was right when he said it can't get worse....
but he forgot to add it will never get better with the US in charge.
never.
iraq belongs to iraq.
we've removed saddam. now let them have their country back to see if they might ever sort it out.
ooooppps...forgot one thing.
iraq is second largest oil-reserve in the world and bush is an oil-man.
nevermind.
it's absolutely not the job he wants.
he was right when he said it can't get worse....
but he forgot to add it will never get better with the US in charge.
never.
iraq belongs to iraq.
we've removed saddam. now let them have their country back to see if they might ever sort it out.
ooooppps...forgot one thing.
iraq is second largest oil-reserve in the world and bush is an oil-man.
nevermind.
Message 42/147 02-May-04 @ 02:04 AM - RE:
It could get worse and it will especially for the 'murkins.
Message 43/147 02-May-04 @ 05:28 AM - RE:
Hey Clay-
I asked him about that. He said it would turn into hell if we left the country right now. Many people in authority are tempted to say "you know what, fine we'll go out and you guys can see what happens"
typical of democrats, they'd make us leave, then bitch about it when it gets worse. But one thing I even in my youth can assure you: It would get worse if we left the country in the position it is now.
If we don't finish the job we attempted to start, I think it would be absolutley foolish. Even if you (not just you, talking to everyone reading) think we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started.
Security is such a huge problem in iraq now...it would turn into rival parties fighting over power if they weren't told who's who. Then another sadaam would buy/kill his way to the top, and boom we're fucked when one of the bush daughters comes in 8 years to become the first woman president.
The never ending bush/iraq cycle! Part 3!
I asked him about that. He said it would turn into hell if we left the country right now. Many people in authority are tempted to say "you know what, fine we'll go out and you guys can see what happens"
typical of democrats, they'd make us leave, then bitch about it when it gets worse. But one thing I even in my youth can assure you: It would get worse if we left the country in the position it is now.
If we don't finish the job we attempted to start, I think it would be absolutley foolish. Even if you (not just you, talking to everyone reading) think we shouldn't have gone in the first place, it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started.
Security is such a huge problem in iraq now...it would turn into rival parties fighting over power if they weren't told who's who. Then another sadaam would buy/kill his way to the top, and boom we're fucked when one of the bush daughters comes in 8 years to become the first woman president.
The never ending bush/iraq cycle! Part 3!
Message 44/147 02-May-04 @ 07:08 AM - RE:
you have a point that i'm going to respectfully disagree with andrew.
there is a good chance that iraqis may still have a bloodthirst sufficient enough to devastate themselves after we leave....but i'll assure it is nothing like their hatred for us. and as long as we enforce our will upon them, the longer we delay them from forging their own destiny.....which is simply a must.
do remember that viet nam took 15 years before we "finally got it" and left.
the vietnamese had to sort out their own differences....and they did.
and don't forget pops has some stake in making sure these wheels of war keep grinding since.....those he consults for...advises...and whatever...are in the business of such enetrprises and endeavors.
those corporations andrew...are at the root of what's happening in
be weary as to their claims of being for the general good of mankind etc.
from my viewpoint.....t just ain't so.
but try to remain aware...keep asking questions....and attempt to arrive at your own conclusions.
there is a good chance that iraqis may still have a bloodthirst sufficient enough to devastate themselves after we leave....but i'll assure it is nothing like their hatred for us. and as long as we enforce our will upon them, the longer we delay them from forging their own destiny.....which is simply a must.
do remember that viet nam took 15 years before we "finally got it" and left.
the vietnamese had to sort out their own differences....and they did.
and don't forget pops has some stake in making sure these wheels of war keep grinding since.....those he consults for...advises...and whatever...are in the business of such enetrprises and endeavors.
those corporations andrew...are at the root of what's happening in
be weary as to their claims of being for the general good of mankind etc.
from my viewpoint.....t just ain't so.
but try to remain aware...keep asking questions....and attempt to arrive at your own conclusions.
Message 45/147 02-May-04 @ 07:49 AM Edit: 02-May-04 | 07:57 AM - RE:
Message 46/147 02-May-04 @ 10:30 AM - RE:
the thing with Iraq is that west (britain, then the us) couldnt get it under their control for about hundred years now, so why would it work now? especially since there are no candidates for a puppet goverment anywhere in sight... how stupid is that :P
Message 47/147 02-May-04 @ 10:31 AM - RE:
"It's not the fault of the US or the UK or France or Saddam, I guess we have this 'them and us' thing built into our genes... Us good, Them bad..., Territoriality, Aggression.. no doubt it makes evolutionary sense up to a point.. sad but true I think.."
i think the veneer of civilization is forming a scab over our old animal selves, making us think that immersion in society and technology have changed us in any way. This isn't just false its bad for us. Without getting into old arguments we are animals, thats all, we respond to stimuli, the environment may be different (we collect money not nuts) but the behaviour is the same.
"Is there hope?"
3 ideas Z. 1) I was surpised to find that I had always thought chaos and anarchy the same, but i found out recently that it isn't. I wonder why I was always taught that?. 2) If something is making you unhappy, perhaps it is not the thing that makes you unhappy but unhappy finding that thing to be with 3) is it me getting older or is the world is getting worse. 4) if Bush etal are untouchable (through their money and power) and continue to expand the %age of the (global) population deeply offended and frightened by their actions, how can the people obtain justice if the law cannot.
Personally I think not (but i have children so I cant think that) but anyway its about time the planet moved on to the next species made in his image,
" it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started. "
To finish something you need to be doing something to finish. OK Saddam is out but was it ever that? but it's going to mean someone with a lot of power and money says something like "These people cannot be allowed to control all that oil and now we control them" until then we are going to have wars of words and electorate polls ad nauseam.
Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven
i think the veneer of civilization is forming a scab over our old animal selves, making us think that immersion in society and technology have changed us in any way. This isn't just false its bad for us. Without getting into old arguments we are animals, thats all, we respond to stimuli, the environment may be different (we collect money not nuts) but the behaviour is the same.
"Is there hope?"
3 ideas Z. 1) I was surpised to find that I had always thought chaos and anarchy the same, but i found out recently that it isn't. I wonder why I was always taught that?. 2) If something is making you unhappy, perhaps it is not the thing that makes you unhappy but unhappy finding that thing to be with 3) is it me getting older or is the world is getting worse. 4) if Bush etal are untouchable (through their money and power) and continue to expand the %age of the (global) population deeply offended and frightened by their actions, how can the people obtain justice if the law cannot.
Personally I think not (but i have children so I cant think that) but anyway its about time the planet moved on to the next species made in his image,
" it would be even worse to not even finish the shit we started. "
To finish something you need to be doing something to finish. OK Saddam is out but was it ever that? but it's going to mean someone with a lot of power and money says something like "These people cannot be allowed to control all that oil and now we control them" until then we are going to have wars of words and electorate polls ad nauseam.
Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven
Message 48/147 02-May-04 @ 10:52 AM - RE:
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
'Dont you see the "war or terror" is a mechanism for control, (have you flown recently?) enemies everywhere forever - its a paranoia inducing loop of insanity, a never ending state of emergency, a control freaks heaven'
Just read George Orwell's 1984.. those guys have... 2004?
heh
;)
Just read George Orwell's 1984.. those guys have... 2004?
heh
;)
Message 49/147 02-May-04 @ 02:31 PM - RE:
One of the first few pages on google- I had heard this on the news too.
Maybe if it wasnt ever the reason why we went there....maybe just a chance we did a really really good thing here? And even better if we give the government some time to fix some things they ed up in the process?
Might be my retardedly optomisic output, but shit I think they need some props for taking him out.
Maybe if it wasnt ever the reason why we went there....maybe just a chance we did a really really good thing here? And even better if we give the government some time to fix some things they ed up in the process?
Might be my retardedly optomisic output, but shit I think they need some props for taking him out.
Message 50/147 02-May-04 @ 03:44 PM - RE:
andrew....the fact is saddam wouldn't have been man-in-charge in iraq without our blessing.
we basically put him in (knowing he was a murderous thug -- but he was OUR thug).
it was kind of our responsibility to take him out but this had little to do with the iraqi people and everything to do with the fact saddam quit bowing to our lead and asking permission to continue his agenda.
kuwait was the big thumbing-of-the-nose at bush-senior which forever
the-boy-george would vow revenge.
it's important not repeat the same mistake by trying to determine iraq's future to benfit our own national agenda.
as for info....i'm not going to say you should like michael moore but he is a brave and,
in my opinion, necessary voice for justice in a world which seems to be moving away from it.
he includes links to a number of news & opinion organizations which i feel you might benefit from exploring. TARGET=NEW>web-link
you have every right to say everyone who criticizes bush and his cronies are full-of-it but i think it's only fair and just that you hear that side in as open a manner
as possible....if fairness and justice is something important to you.
which i think it is and the reason why i'll try to be respectful as possible when presenting any view which might counter yours.
you...young man...are important to the future of our planet and this nation which requires a conscience if it is to steer humankind into the future in any way that doesn't prove to be totally disastrous for all.
fyi...i do check the more conscious and level-headed conservative sites for their viewpoints fairly regularly....in my attempts toward also understanding all sides
in these crucial arguments.
we basically put him in (knowing he was a murderous thug -- but he was OUR thug).
it was kind of our responsibility to take him out but this had little to do with the iraqi people and everything to do with the fact saddam quit bowing to our lead and asking permission to continue his agenda.
kuwait was the big thumbing-of-the-nose at bush-senior which forever
the-boy-george would vow revenge.
it's important not repeat the same mistake by trying to determine iraq's future to benfit our own national agenda.
as for info....i'm not going to say you should like michael moore but he is a brave and,
in my opinion, necessary voice for justice in a world which seems to be moving away from it.
he includes links to a number of news & opinion organizations which i feel you might benefit from exploring. TARGET=NEW>web-link
you have every right to say everyone who criticizes bush and his cronies are full-of-it but i think it's only fair and just that you hear that side in as open a manner
as possible....if fairness and justice is something important to you.
which i think it is and the reason why i'll try to be respectful as possible when presenting any view which might counter yours.
you...young man...are important to the future of our planet and this nation which requires a conscience if it is to steer humankind into the future in any way that doesn't prove to be totally disastrous for all.
fyi...i do check the more conscious and level-headed conservative sites for their viewpoints fairly regularly....in my attempts toward also understanding all sides
in these crucial arguments.
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