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Forums - The lounge
Subject: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Original Message Date: 05-May-04 @ 04:50 AM - speaking of Michael Moore.....
May 5, 2004
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
ASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.
Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.
In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."
But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies.
"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."
Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's studio, backed out.
Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.
"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."
Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.
A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company has the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deems their distribution to be against the interests of the company. Mr. Moore's film, the executive said, is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film could alienate many.
"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.
Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, although such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.
Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "
Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as he sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.
Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.
Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's decision to help members of the bin Laden family leave the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.
Mr. Moore initially planned on producing the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but last May it pulled out.
"The project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, a spokesman for Icon, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.
Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had previously produced one of Mr. Moore's films, 1997's "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute the film.
While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution -— which would ideally hoping happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
ASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.
Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.
In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."
But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies.
"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."
Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's studio, backed out.
Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.
"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."
Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.
A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company has the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deems their distribution to be against the interests of the company. Mr. Moore's film, the executive said, is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film could alienate many.
"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.
Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, although such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.
Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "
Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as he sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.
Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.
Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's decision to help members of the bin Laden family leave the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.
Mr. Moore initially planned on producing the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but last May it pulled out.
"The project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, a spokesman for Icon, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.
Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had previously produced one of Mr. Moore's films, 1997's "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute the film.
While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution -— which would ideally hoping happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
Message 51/69 18-May-04 @ 11:40 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i'm going to get back to hope here since i know something about it's possession and value over the long haul just a little more than my one smart philosophical warrior/ friend for sure...and i'm guessing over
even the new one here.
whatever you might say to paint hope as a wishy-washy bit of mentality...fine....but seriously...when "action man" doth speak so haughtily about what might be affected via the BIG_WALK....you go strap yourself to the tits and run on through some line of dudes.....wow...perhaps even taking 10 (!?) or 100?! of the filthy enemy!!!!?
you! action-man!
you mighty.....
can only HOPE that
1) you don't get your heroic ass shot on your way there....
and 2) that your mighty explosive and brilliantly-executed actions...your phenomenal strategic maneuverings and persuasions actually buy you more than some brief proletarian hooray.
and about 10 times the amount of revenge coming your way.
so many jealous and pious players always involved in any opposition>
like...who's the MOST radical of the radicals until yes...you yourself resort to becoming part of the problem by resorting to said action.
well....also part of the solution but a part of the problem too.
it all gets rather petty.... hope is for the brainless dreamers...BUT
i am war-man.
i am tactical.
i work out!
please.
one day you'll understand what i'm talking about.
step at a time.
evolution.
and perhaps you'll learn to enjoy your role as another voice and spirit in a sea of voices that represent the hopes and dreams and shields and torches of all.
until then i'm watching for the next episode of action-man.
this i wouldn't miss for anything.
but one thing for sure...and i've said this before.....but it seems it bears repeating...
if you ARE indeed action-man...then go for it.....but shut the hell up saying you are.
you'll never even get chance to take the damned guy's poodle out if you keep yakking and saying
i'm gonna do it!
i'm gonna do it!
watch me...hear me!
i'm action-man.
i'll take my version of hope any day......and if i ain't capable of that.....
well i just ain't saying.
even the new one here.
whatever you might say to paint hope as a wishy-washy bit of mentality...fine....but seriously...when "action man" doth speak so haughtily about what might be affected via the BIG_WALK....you go strap yourself to the tits and run on through some line of dudes.....wow...perhaps even taking 10 (!?) or 100?! of the filthy enemy!!!!?
you! action-man!
you mighty.....
can only HOPE that
1) you don't get your heroic ass shot on your way there....
and 2) that your mighty explosive and brilliantly-executed actions...your phenomenal strategic maneuverings and persuasions actually buy you more than some brief proletarian hooray.
and about 10 times the amount of revenge coming your way.
so many jealous and pious players always involved in any opposition>
like...who's the MOST radical of the radicals until yes...you yourself resort to becoming part of the problem by resorting to said action.
well....also part of the solution but a part of the problem too.
it all gets rather petty.... hope is for the brainless dreamers...BUT
i am war-man.
i am tactical.
i work out!
please.
one day you'll understand what i'm talking about.
step at a time.
evolution.
and perhaps you'll learn to enjoy your role as another voice and spirit in a sea of voices that represent the hopes and dreams and shields and torches of all.
until then i'm watching for the next episode of action-man.
this i wouldn't miss for anything.
but one thing for sure...and i've said this before.....but it seems it bears repeating...
if you ARE indeed action-man...then go for it.....but shut the hell up saying you are.
you'll never even get chance to take the damned guy's poodle out if you keep yakking and saying
i'm gonna do it!
i'm gonna do it!
watch me...hear me!
i'm action-man.
i'll take my version of hope any day......and if i ain't capable of that.....
well i just ain't saying.
Message 52/69 18-May-04 @ 11:56 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
I'm not sure where this "action man", condesentia bullshit came from...in addition I'm puzzled as to when and where the idea that I support some sort of violent revolt was snatched out of the nowhere and added to my statment.
I'm simplying stating that hope doesn't get shit done, doing get things completed.
I'm simplying stating that hope doesn't get shit done, doing get things completed.
Message 53/69 19-May-04 @ 05:15 AM Edit: 19-May-04 | 05:20 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
Link?: No link
File?: No file
As I see it action without thought is merely reaction and simple reaction doesn't seem to be a very effective method of dealing with opression,and of course thought without action is merely inaction.
The more thought that goes into a plan of action or into a general philosophy the more chance it has of bearing fruit in the real world.Hope is a bit of a double edged sword,on the one hand it inspires action so it is a vital ingredient of all revolutions and reform movements,on the other hand hope can be used as a way of reinforcing the concept of deferred gratification e.g. the concept of heaven as in just endure this miserable existence and work like a hive insect and in the next life you'll get the honey,life for the poor unfortunates afflicted with this fluffy wuffy notion is simply too terrifying or horrible to contemplate(you're dead,you're manure).Secular version work long,hard and honestly then reap the reward of rosy retirement.What can I say but Enron.
Speaking of Chavez I reckon it won't be long before the US makes another more concerted attempt to get rid of his government.Venezeula is far too important to the US to be allowed to remain in socialist hands.Watch this space for another coup and it will be a bloody one.
If you would be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity,how would you like the world to be Dissonance?
The more thought that goes into a plan of action or into a general philosophy the more chance it has of bearing fruit in the real world.Hope is a bit of a double edged sword,on the one hand it inspires action so it is a vital ingredient of all revolutions and reform movements,on the other hand hope can be used as a way of reinforcing the concept of deferred gratification e.g. the concept of heaven as in just endure this miserable existence and work like a hive insect and in the next life you'll get the honey,life for the poor unfortunates afflicted with this fluffy wuffy notion is simply too terrifying or horrible to contemplate(you're dead,you're manure).Secular version work long,hard and honestly then reap the reward of rosy retirement.What can I say but Enron.
Speaking of Chavez I reckon it won't be long before the US makes another more concerted attempt to get rid of his government.Venezeula is far too important to the US to be allowed to remain in socialist hands.Watch this space for another coup and it will be a bloody one.
If you would be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity,how would you like the world to be Dissonance?
Message 54/69 19-May-04 @ 05:49 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
I love watching the way people attack so condescendingly on here. people they dont know from adam.
Message 55/69 19-May-04 @ 10:20 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
"they don't get the same shit done"
Maybe doing shit IS the problem. Action as error. Whats wrong with an unfulfilled potential, so what we dont go out there and give one for the Zipper or push that extra inch. This lifestyle call that we must "be all we can be®" is just a hip way of keeping us moving.
Lets think about moving. I believe that our technological advances far outstrip our cultural or social or phiolisophical development so why do we keep pushing harder and harder to go somewhere we haven't figured out (or had time or inclination to figure out) whether we want to go to or not. We are dough of bread and circuses, we are a mass that is stimulated to move, our direction (and misidrection) is controlled within culture, law and between them our comprehension of expectation. Democracy does not include autonomy as a choice. And if this is paranoia then what, our world is the result of a firefight of needs, greed, power and death, still none too pretty.
"It's not as bad as all that Cheds old mate..."
At no time in our past have species and diversity been so consciously eroded, infact i think it is becoming expected that people will live everywhere and all other species are second class citizens to the 'advancement of man'. People spoor. And we, with our liberal ears bored with old news can nix deforrestation and acceptable pollution and flip channels to twist old emotions again and feel something about something (see 'war in Iraq', '4 more years', 'MIddle Eastern Situation', 'gay marraige', ' 'prices at the pumps'.
About about action. Whats the difference between a redneck with a gun and a bleeding heart liberal with a gun. Nothing at all, both believe they are doing the right thing and their actions will be excused in the fullness of time.
Maybe doing shit IS the problem. Action as error. Whats wrong with an unfulfilled potential, so what we dont go out there and give one for the Zipper or push that extra inch. This lifestyle call that we must "be all we can be®" is just a hip way of keeping us moving.
Lets think about moving. I believe that our technological advances far outstrip our cultural or social or phiolisophical development so why do we keep pushing harder and harder to go somewhere we haven't figured out (or had time or inclination to figure out) whether we want to go to or not. We are dough of bread and circuses, we are a mass that is stimulated to move, our direction (and misidrection) is controlled within culture, law and between them our comprehension of expectation. Democracy does not include autonomy as a choice. And if this is paranoia then what, our world is the result of a firefight of needs, greed, power and death, still none too pretty.
"It's not as bad as all that Cheds old mate..."
At no time in our past have species and diversity been so consciously eroded, infact i think it is becoming expected that people will live everywhere and all other species are second class citizens to the 'advancement of man'. People spoor. And we, with our liberal ears bored with old news can nix deforrestation and acceptable pollution and flip channels to twist old emotions again and feel something about something (see 'war in Iraq', '4 more years', 'MIddle Eastern Situation', 'gay marraige', ' 'prices at the pumps'.
About about action. Whats the difference between a redneck with a gun and a bleeding heart liberal with a gun. Nothing at all, both believe they are doing the right thing and their actions will be excused in the fullness of time.
Message 56/69 19-May-04 @ 04:32 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
what greenpeace successfully pulled-off in columbia or brazil last week....
physically attaching themselves to cranes and ships trying to offload genetically-altered soy~
after that government had voted to not allow for such import
into it's population (for obvious health concerns).......
now this is action of the sort which makes absolute sense.
i only give thanks that it was a private ship attempting to make the delivery and not the us government.
i'm pretty sure some ordinance would've suggested that firing upon the protesters would've been justified due to the importance of feeding a country a potentially-hazardous product which it did not want to eat.
etc.
in any kind of true democracy.....talk is close to action.
dialog constitutes exchange and interaction.
the greeks established that and we, here, have a forum to allow for such tendencies in ourselves.
and don't think i don't have this discussion going on in the non-virtual world.
and not just with liberals either.
that's not the wall-of-consciousness we're trying to scale here.
and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better.
physically attaching themselves to cranes and ships trying to offload genetically-altered soy~
after that government had voted to not allow for such import
into it's population (for obvious health concerns).......
now this is action of the sort which makes absolute sense.
i only give thanks that it was a private ship attempting to make the delivery and not the us government.
i'm pretty sure some ordinance would've suggested that firing upon the protesters would've been justified due to the importance of feeding a country a potentially-hazardous product which it did not want to eat.
etc.
in any kind of true democracy.....talk is close to action.
dialog constitutes exchange and interaction.
the greeks established that and we, here, have a forum to allow for such tendencies in ourselves.
and don't think i don't have this discussion going on in the non-virtual world.
and not just with liberals either.
that's not the wall-of-consciousness we're trying to scale here.
and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better.
Message 57/69 19-May-04 @ 04:46 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Dialogue.
Message 58/69 19-May-04 @ 05:20 PM Edit: 19-May-04 | 05:21 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
"and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better."
well, why don't you re-read what you typed... then tell me how it can come across as anything but...
you know, its funny. I'm by no means saying that there is no room for discussion. its a hallmark of change, the catalyst for cognitive dissonance in certain cases. and like I stated before, sometimes you have to sit back and watch...like with the PNAC (Project for a New American Century). get an idea of how they're playing ball so that you can properly defend.
you should know better."
well, why don't you re-read what you typed... then tell me how it can come across as anything but...
you know, its funny. I'm by no means saying that there is no room for discussion. its a hallmark of change, the catalyst for cognitive dissonance in certain cases. and like I stated before, sometimes you have to sit back and watch...like with the PNAC (Project for a New American Century). get an idea of how they're playing ball so that you can properly defend.
Message 59/69 19-May-04 @ 05:57 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
again, cheddar expresses somethnig i can get with.. this inaction thing.. instead of a government addressing people's needs, how about a government that will reliably forego addressing people's needs.. instead of religions that take actions to save your soul, hows about some that effectively take no actions to save your soul..
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
Message 60/69 19-May-04 @ 05:57 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
again, cheddar expresses somethnig i can get with.. this inaction thing.. instead of a government addressing people's needs, how about a government that will reliably forego addressing people's needs.. instead of religions that take actions to save your soul, hows about some that effectively take no actions to save your soul..
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
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