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Forums - The lounge
Subject: speaking of Michael Moore.....
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Original Message 1/69 05-May-04 @ 04:50 AM - speaking of Michael Moore.....
May 5, 2004
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
ASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.
Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.
In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."
But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies.
"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."
Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's studio, backed out.
Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.
"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."
Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.
A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company has the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deems their distribution to be against the interests of the company. Mr. Moore's film, the executive said, is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film could alienate many.
"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.
Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, although such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.
Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "
Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as he sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.
Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.
Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's decision to help members of the bin Laden family leave the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.
Mr. Moore initially planned on producing the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but last May it pulled out.
"The project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, a spokesman for Icon, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.
Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had previously produced one of Mr. Moore's films, 1997's "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute the film.
While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution -— which would ideally hoping happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
ASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.
The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.
Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.
In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."
But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies.
"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."
Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's studio, backed out.
Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.
"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."
Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.
A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company has the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deems their distribution to be against the interests of the company. Mr. Moore's film, the executive said, is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film could alienate many.
"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.
Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, although such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.
Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "
Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as he sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.
Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.
Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's decision to help members of the bin Laden family leave the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.
Mr. Moore initially planned on producing the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but last May it pulled out.
"The project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, a spokesman for Icon, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.
Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had previously produced one of Mr. Moore's films, 1997's "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute the film.
While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution -— which would ideally hoping happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
Message 2/69 05-May-04 @ 05:49 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
michael moore....walt disney corp....michael moore...walt disney corp....
nope ...that one just wasn't going to work.
those florida tax-breaks had nothing to do with it of course.
nope ...that one just wasn't going to work.
those florida tax-breaks had nothing to do with it of course.
Message 3/69 05-May-04 @ 10:10 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
after the election if George looses, otherwise it may go straight to video
Message 4/69 05-May-04 @ 10:52 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
bah. Disney.
I've heard they don't even serve beer in their theme parks. That earns a big thumbs down from my corner.
my low-impact, low-tax-bracket little corner...
more like a cubicle, actually.
I've heard they don't even serve beer in their theme parks. That earns a big thumbs down from my corner.
my low-impact, low-tax-bracket little corner...
more like a cubicle, actually.
Message 5/69 05-May-04 @ 03:31 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
you trapped in the changing rooms at GAP again ?
Message 6/69 05-May-04 @ 04:21 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
EEKKK! he said the gap....
actually, I got an email from Michael Moore's list... he said Harvey is gonna make sure this gets out somehow this summer...
so fret not.. the propaganda will be flying high and hard just prior to the elections.
actually, I got an email from Michael Moore's list... he said Harvey is gonna make sure this gets out somehow this summer...
so fret not.. the propaganda will be flying high and hard just prior to the elections.
Message 7/69 05-May-04 @ 04:27 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Moore is a fat, manipulative, deceitful . But a useful nonetheless since not his
documentaries but the reactions to them by his opponents lay bare some of the things
that are definately amiss in Denmark.
I would have flatly ignored him if it weren't for the hundreds of thousands of right wing
trying to picture him as an unpatriotic unamerican communist traitor friend of Satan;
dumping menure on his front porch or even trying to silence him by censorship.
Bookburners scare me.
documentaries but the reactions to them by his opponents lay bare some of the things
that are definately amiss in Denmark.
I would have flatly ignored him if it weren't for the hundreds of thousands of right wing
trying to picture him as an unpatriotic unamerican communist traitor friend of Satan;
dumping menure on his front porch or even trying to silence him by censorship.
Bookburners scare me.
Message 8/69 06-May-04 @ 12:16 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
So Bastiaan, please point out the deceit, manipulation etc..?
Message 9/69 06-May-04 @ 12:52 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
one scary thing about book-burners (not the scariest thing about them though)
is that they never even read what it is they're burning.
usually they're illiterates or semi-illiterates running around with some preacher proclaiming burn this burn that.
sometimes they'll do it from f-22s in other people's backyards.
is that they never even read what it is they're burning.
usually they're illiterates or semi-illiterates running around with some preacher proclaiming burn this burn that.
sometimes they'll do it from f-22s in other people's backyards.
Message 10/69 06-May-04 @ 03:01 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
does he actually do anything? I dont know thats why I'm asking. Besides complaining and being a sloppy bitch, does he like DO anything?
I hope someone can make me shut up..cause seriously I don't know enough about this guy...
I hope someone can make me shut up..cause seriously I don't know enough about this guy...
Message 12/69 06-May-04 @ 05:52 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
bowling for columbine
was the biggest grossing documentary film ever.
he's also quite an author and spokesperson.
feel free to bash him but don't do it because he's fat and wears glasses.
you might accidentally smack that punk karl rove.
was the biggest grossing documentary film ever.
he's also quite an author and spokesperson.
feel free to bash him but don't do it because he's fat and wears glasses.
you might accidentally smack that punk karl rove.
Message 13/69 06-May-04 @ 06:27 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
except karl rove looks like an actual pig. aside from the fact that he slips into a suit and walks on 2 legs....he actually looks like 100% pig.
i'm not talking just snout...or just fat...or just beady little eyes and glasses...or just bald-headed like a pig....but i mean ALL OF THAT and so seriously designed and put together like 100% total PIGMAN.
it's like some bio-engineering experiment went pretty-darned-south.
you see..... i don't like putting people down for their physical features but he's so mean i don't even consider human anymore.
check him out sometime.....he's really quite a show and being bush's #1 advisor....
you really should know something about him.
i'm not talking just snout...or just fat...or just beady little eyes and glasses...or just bald-headed like a pig....but i mean ALL OF THAT and so seriously designed and put together like 100% total PIGMAN.
it's like some bio-engineering experiment went pretty-darned-south.
you see..... i don't like putting people down for their physical features but he's so mean i don't even consider human anymore.
check him out sometime.....he's really quite a show and being bush's #1 advisor....
you really should know something about him.
Message 14/69 06-May-04 @ 09:33 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
He goes around giving talks (saw him in London a couple of years back) writing books, articles, making documentaries, TV programs, engaging in political activism.. etc etc
He did a TV series in the UK a while back... exposing various government corruption, intelligence (sic) services dirty tricks etc etc.
BS, you have to read 'Stupid White Men'.. hilarious...
;)
He did a TV series in the UK a while back... exposing various government corruption, intelligence (sic) services dirty tricks etc etc.
BS, you have to read 'Stupid White Men'.. hilarious...
;)
Message 15/69 06-May-04 @ 10:58 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
yeah we will be able to see it over here luckily....liked bolwing for columnbine...the south park bit was quality!!
greg
greg
Message 16/69 06-May-04 @ 11:53 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Yeah...Don't like him. Dunno, I can't stand people who whine about shit and don't do anything like fund raising/first hand work/volunteer etc in his postition. I'll give him some respect once he does something instead of just "talking" because talking is never enough.
I did see his movie about flint michagan...? Gm plants and stuff. Only thing I saw.
Just curious...what was his standpoint on the columbine stuff? Blame the parents?
I did see his movie about flint michagan...? Gm plants and stuff. Only thing I saw.
Just curious...what was his standpoint on the columbine stuff? Blame the parents?
Message 17/69 06-May-04 @ 02:24 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
essentially he the way the thing was put together meant he seems to change his stance half way through.....essentially it all ends up with republican politics and the NRA....
we have mark thomas over here who does do some very good work (well stunts)....im not sure moore is as prolific but chops to him anyway......
greg
we have mark thomas over here who does do some very good work (well stunts)....im not sure moore is as prolific but chops to him anyway......
greg
Message 18/69 06-May-04 @ 02:36 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Moore blamed pretty much anything on fear didn't he? Not Merican culture, not the amount of weapons, not Merican history but just plain old (media fed) fear: fear of crime, fear of blacks, fear of not fitting in, fear of commies etc.etc.etc.
Message 19/69 06-May-04 @ 03:00 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
he's not afraid of a few pies by the looks of him.
Message 20/69 06-May-04 @ 04:05 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
essentially but first it was the media then it was the current administration....i agree with most of it....there cant be only one reason for it...that would be truly insane!
greg
greg
Message 21/69 06-May-04 @ 04:47 PM Edit: 06-May-04 | 04:48 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
bs, you're being stupid. He IS doing something about it, he's making fucking feature films to get his point out there to people. What the hell are *you* doing?
sounds like someone you know had a little rant on the man and that's about all you know about him. just shut up till you get some first-hand facts, ok? Do you even know what he's "bitching" about?
and the point of "bowling" was that guns are bad, mmmkay? There's no one reason for Columbine, he was simply pointing out the state of America's relationship with guns today. And it was scary. And very real... if you saw it...
sounds like someone you know had a little rant on the man and that's about all you know about him. just shut up till you get some first-hand facts, ok? Do you even know what he's "bitching" about?
and the point of "bowling" was that guns are bad, mmmkay? There's no one reason for Columbine, he was simply pointing out the state of America's relationship with guns today. And it was scary. And very real... if you saw it...
Message 22/69 06-May-04 @ 09:46 PM Edit: 06-May-04 | 09:51 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
He did manage to get the local Wal-Mart to stop selling ammunition!
The kids at Columbine were killed with ammo from the local Wal-Mart, fyi
And he asked the local people why they thought it happened.. and they didn't know...
He did point out that 'The Industry' in Columbine was manufacturing missiles... and he interviewed the kids at the school, who seemed to hate it with a vengeance, and felt very alienated, stressed etc..
I think he was more trying to find out what was going on.
He was also pulling up the NRA for running pro-gun rallies in the area just after the kids got killed... and suggesting that promoting gun culture at syuch a time was being a bit insensitive to the recently bereaved parents...
BS.. read 'Stupid White men' before you comment about Michael Moorer, he is a bit of a prat in some ways but he does a lot of good work..
The kids at Columbine were killed with ammo from the local Wal-Mart, fyi
And he asked the local people why they thought it happened.. and they didn't know...
He did point out that 'The Industry' in Columbine was manufacturing missiles... and he interviewed the kids at the school, who seemed to hate it with a vengeance, and felt very alienated, stressed etc..
I think he was more trying to find out what was going on.
He was also pulling up the NRA for running pro-gun rallies in the area just after the kids got killed... and suggesting that promoting gun culture at syuch a time was being a bit insensitive to the recently bereaved parents...
BS.. read 'Stupid White men' before you comment about Michael Moorer, he is a bit of a prat in some ways but he does a lot of good work..
Message 23/69 07-May-04 @ 01:23 AM Edit: 07-May-04 | 01:55 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
edit: i see your point. but still have mine, hard to explain and not worth arguing over the internet about.
Message 25/69 07-May-04 @ 05:14 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
So, BS, have you actually read his book?
Message 26/69 07-May-04 @ 09:47 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
BS...what do you mean by "do something"
I mean..I dont like the guy much, but he definitely has the exposure necessary to break open the veil of bullshit. just seems like theres plenty of BS on his side too
but...do something? Writing best sellers, and making documentaries isnt doing something?
do you mean...like...get involved in politics?
heh. he'd be fckin DEAD in five years. period
I mean..I dont like the guy much, but he definitely has the exposure necessary to break open the veil of bullshit. just seems like theres plenty of BS on his side too
but...do something? Writing best sellers, and making documentaries isnt doing something?
do you mean...like...get involved in politics?
heh. he'd be fckin DEAD in five years. period
Message 27/69 07-May-04 @ 10:03 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
jesus christ BS.. what the fuck do you want him to do... manifest world peace?
he got some guy a fucking pancreas transplant when his insurance company wouldn't cover it!
does that qualify?
or do you have to subcontract for one of those companies that you dad works for to get something done? Like forcefully ass fucking POWs?
so what if Moore "twists or contorts" the truth? you've got Condi Rice lying to our fucking faces days after 9.11! "no one could have imagined that terrorists would hijack a commercial airliner and use it as a missle" and just two months prior to that statement, the Pentagon had a safety drill... for what you ask? just in case a plane happened to crash into the building!
and lets not forget the G8 summit in Genoa. They shutdow airspace above and around the summit in fear that someone may crash a commercial airliner into the building.
that certainly seems like "no one could have imagined" to me!
pick the right fucking wars to fight, the right battles to have.
he got some guy a fucking pancreas transplant when his insurance company wouldn't cover it!
does that qualify?
or do you have to subcontract for one of those companies that you dad works for to get something done? Like forcefully ass fucking POWs?
so what if Moore "twists or contorts" the truth? you've got Condi Rice lying to our fucking faces days after 9.11! "no one could have imagined that terrorists would hijack a commercial airliner and use it as a missle" and just two months prior to that statement, the Pentagon had a safety drill... for what you ask? just in case a plane happened to crash into the building!
and lets not forget the G8 summit in Genoa. They shutdow airspace above and around the summit in fear that someone may crash a commercial airliner into the building.
that certainly seems like "no one could have imagined" to me!
pick the right fucking wars to fight, the right battles to have.
Message 28/69 07-May-04 @ 10:25 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
here's a little copy&paste from a (F)airness and (A)ccuracy (I)n (R)eporting email...
quote
ACTIVISM UPDATE:
Eisner's Fantasyland Excuse for Censorship
May 7, 2004
On the television network that his company owns, Disney CEO Michael Eisner
dismissed the idea that forbidding Disney subsidiary Miramax to distribute
a controversial new documentary by Michael Moore was a form of censorship.
"We informed both the agency that represented the film and all of our
companies that we just didn't want to be in the middle of a
politically-oriented film during an election year," he told ABC World News
Tonight (5/5/04), referring to Moore's Fahrenheit 911, which examines the
connections between the Bush family and the House of Saud that rules Saudi
Arabia.
On its face, Eisner's statement will have a chilling effect. A major
movie studio with an announced policy of only releasing apolitical films,
in an election year or any other year, will discourage filmmakers from
tackling important themes and impoverish the American political debate.
(That Moore and Miramax were given advance warning of this policy hardly
mitigates its censorious impact.)
But Eisner's statement cannot be taken at face value, because Disney,
through its various subsidiaries, is one of the largest distributors of
political, often highly partisan media content in the country-- virtually
all of it right-wing. Consider:
* Almost all of Disney's major talk radio stations-- WABC in New York,
WMAL in D.C., WLS in Chicago, WBAP in Dallas/Ft. Worth and KSFO in San
Francisco-- broadcast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Indeed, WABC is
considered the home station for both of these shows, which promote an
unremitting Republican political agenda. (Disney's KABC in L.A. carries
Hannity, but has Bill O'Reilly instead of Limbaugh.) Disney's news/talk
stations are dominated by a variety of other partisan Republican hosts,
both local and national, including Laura Ingraham, Larry Elder and Matt
Drudge.
* Disney's Family Channel carries Pat Robertson's 700 Club, which
routinely equates Christianity with Republican causes. After the September
11 attacks, Robertson's guest Jerry Falwell (9/13/01) blamed the attacks
on those who "make God mad": "the pagans and the abortionists and the
feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make
that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all
of them who try to secularize America." Robertson's response was, "I
totally concur." It's hard to imagine that anything in Moore's film will
be more controversial than that.
* Disney's ABC News prominently features John Stossel, who, though not
explicitly partisan, advocates for a conservative philosophy in almost all
his work: "It is my job to explain the beauties of the free market," he
has explained (Oregonian, 10/26/94). No journalist is allowed to advocate
for a balancing point of view on ABC's news programs.
Given the considerable amount of right-wing material distributed by
Disney, much of it openly promoting Republican candidates and issues, it's
impossible to believe that Disney is preventing Miramax from distributing
Fahrenheit 911 because, as a Disney executive told the New York Times
(5/5/04), "It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged
into a highly charged partisan political battle." Disney, in fact, makes
a great deal of money off of highly charged partisan political battles,
although it generally provides access to only one side of the war.
So what is the real reason it won't distribute Moore's movie? The
explanation that Moore's agent said he was offered by Eisner-- that Disney
was afraid of losing tax breaks from Florida Gov. Jeb Bush-- is more
persuasive than Eisner's obviously false public rationale. But more
relevant may be Disney's financial involvement with a member of the same
Saudi family whose connections to the Bush dynasty are investigated by
Moore. Prince Al-Walid bin Talal, a billionaire investor who is a
grandson of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd, became a major investor in Disney's
Eurodisney theme park when it was in financial trouble, and may be asked
to bail out the troubled project again.
It's not unprecedented for Disney to respond favorably to a political
request from its Saudi business partner; when Disney's EPCOT Center
planned to describe Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in an exhibit on
Israeli culture, Al-Walid says that he had personally asked Eisner to
intervene in the decision. That same week, Disney announced that the
pavilion would not refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital (BBC, 9/14/99).
Whatever the true motive of Disney's decision to reject Moore's film, it's
not the one that Eisner and other company spokespersons are advancing in
public. Journalists covering the issue should go beyond Disney's
transparent PR stance and explore the real motivations involved.
ACTIVISM UPDATE:
Eisner's Fantasyland Excuse for Censorship
May 7, 2004
On the television network that his company owns, Disney CEO Michael Eisner
dismissed the idea that forbidding Disney subsidiary Miramax to distribute
a controversial new documentary by Michael Moore was a form of censorship.
"We informed both the agency that represented the film and all of our
companies that we just didn't want to be in the middle of a
politically-oriented film during an election year," he told ABC World News
Tonight (5/5/04), referring to Moore's Fahrenheit 911, which examines the
connections between the Bush family and the House of Saud that rules Saudi
Arabia.
On its face, Eisner's statement will have a chilling effect. A major
movie studio with an announced policy of only releasing apolitical films,
in an election year or any other year, will discourage filmmakers from
tackling important themes and impoverish the American political debate.
(That Moore and Miramax were given advance warning of this policy hardly
mitigates its censorious impact.)
But Eisner's statement cannot be taken at face value, because Disney,
through its various subsidiaries, is one of the largest distributors of
political, often highly partisan media content in the country-- virtually
all of it right-wing. Consider:
* Almost all of Disney's major talk radio stations-- WABC in New York,
WMAL in D.C., WLS in Chicago, WBAP in Dallas/Ft. Worth and KSFO in San
Francisco-- broadcast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Indeed, WABC is
considered the home station for both of these shows, which promote an
unremitting Republican political agenda. (Disney's KABC in L.A. carries
Hannity, but has Bill O'Reilly instead of Limbaugh.) Disney's news/talk
stations are dominated by a variety of other partisan Republican hosts,
both local and national, including Laura Ingraham, Larry Elder and Matt
Drudge.
* Disney's Family Channel carries Pat Robertson's 700 Club, which
routinely equates Christianity with Republican causes. After the September
11 attacks, Robertson's guest Jerry Falwell (9/13/01) blamed the attacks
on those who "make God mad": "the pagans and the abortionists and the
feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make
that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all
of them who try to secularize America." Robertson's response was, "I
totally concur." It's hard to imagine that anything in Moore's film will
be more controversial than that.
* Disney's ABC News prominently features John Stossel, who, though not
explicitly partisan, advocates for a conservative philosophy in almost all
his work: "It is my job to explain the beauties of the free market," he
has explained (Oregonian, 10/26/94). No journalist is allowed to advocate
for a balancing point of view on ABC's news programs.
Given the considerable amount of right-wing material distributed by
Disney, much of it openly promoting Republican candidates and issues, it's
impossible to believe that Disney is preventing Miramax from distributing
Fahrenheit 911 because, as a Disney executive told the New York Times
(5/5/04), "It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged
into a highly charged partisan political battle." Disney, in fact, makes
a great deal of money off of highly charged partisan political battles,
although it generally provides access to only one side of the war.
So what is the real reason it won't distribute Moore's movie? The
explanation that Moore's agent said he was offered by Eisner-- that Disney
was afraid of losing tax breaks from Florida Gov. Jeb Bush-- is more
persuasive than Eisner's obviously false public rationale. But more
relevant may be Disney's financial involvement with a member of the same
Saudi family whose connections to the Bush dynasty are investigated by
Moore. Prince Al-Walid bin Talal, a billionaire investor who is a
grandson of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd, became a major investor in Disney's
Eurodisney theme park when it was in financial trouble, and may be asked
to bail out the troubled project again.
It's not unprecedented for Disney to respond favorably to a political
request from its Saudi business partner; when Disney's EPCOT Center
planned to describe Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in an exhibit on
Israeli culture, Al-Walid says that he had personally asked Eisner to
intervene in the decision. That same week, Disney announced that the
pavilion would not refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital (BBC, 9/14/99).
Whatever the true motive of Disney's decision to reject Moore's film, it's
not the one that Eisner and other company spokespersons are advancing in
public. Journalists covering the issue should go beyond Disney's
transparent PR stance and explore the real motivations involved.
Message 29/69 08-May-04 @ 01:54 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Anyone seen the Errol Morris documentary 'The Fog of War' with Robert McNemara? Is it any good? Its out here in Dublin next week... can't wait to check it out...
Message 30/69 12-May-04 @ 08:28 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Saw that documentary ^ - Its really excellent - fantastically put together - Although not as sensational as Micheal Moore's stuff, in terms of film making it doesen't even compare - Anybody interested in recent history and American foreign policy should check it out...
http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Critic_Review/Observer_Film_of_the_week/0,4267,1185294,00.html
http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Critic_Review/Observer_Film_of_the_week/0,4267,1185294,00.html
Message 31/69 14-May-04 @ 12:32 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
He's a fat pig who's also the LARGEST windbag in media clips
nasty!!!!
nasty!!!!
Message 32/69 14-May-04 @ 03:32 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
gosh imagine how much more credible he'd be if he just lost a few pounds... golly...
Message 34/69 14-May-04 @ 04:47 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
No seriously, I don't know how anyone takes that guy seriously... all his ranting on the government and big business and guns and such. How can he be so liberal AND fat??? It just boggles the mind.
Until the hypocrisy of his weight issue is eliminated, I cannot accept anything this man says as "truth"
Until the hypocrisy of his weight issue is eliminated, I cannot accept anything this man says as "truth"
Message 35/69 14-May-04 @ 06:30 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
It is disturbing that pretty much everyone who tries to tear the man down has to mention his weight.
Message 36/69 14-May-04 @ 07:52 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
right?
who cares how "fat" he is
my doctor weighs 400 lb. easily, and it's a glandular problem..
not saying moore has a glandular problem.. i see moore as an editorialist, more than documentaian.. for a real documentarian, i'd say errol morris.. of course, he's not too into modern politics, but his work is quite wonderful - check Fast, Cheap, & Out of Control
who cares how "fat" he is
my doctor weighs 400 lb. easily, and it's a glandular problem..
not saying moore has a glandular problem.. i see moore as an editorialist, more than documentaian.. for a real documentarian, i'd say errol morris.. of course, he's not too into modern politics, but his work is quite wonderful - check Fast, Cheap, & Out of Control
Message 37/69 14-May-04 @ 09:41 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
couldn't be arsed to create a new topic
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm
altho'it deserves one
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm
altho'it deserves one
Message 38/69 14-May-04 @ 10:01 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
good one compulsary.
i'm glad SOMEONE FINALLY posted that vonnegut link.
next to mark twain that man is.
i'm glad SOMEONE FINALLY posted that vonnegut link.
next to mark twain that man is.
Message 39/69 15-May-04 @ 02:12 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Fat has nothing to do with credibility as he never really had much
Again, he's a nasty windbag that needs his hot air let out :lol
Again, he's a nasty windbag that needs his hot air let out :lol
Message 40/69 15-May-04 @ 03:04 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Maybe we're all just part of a vast planetary chemical reprocessing cycle!
Message 41/69 15-May-04 @ 03:06 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Big bugs have little bugs upon their backs to bite 'em
and little bugs have littler bugs and so ad infinitum.
and little bugs have littler bugs and so ad infinitum.
Message 42/69 15-May-04 @ 03:14 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
but it's really not moore's credibility-rating you're worried about....is it?
lol>
lol>
Message 43/69 15-May-04 @ 03:33 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pizza-man....instead of worrying about moore....this the kind of credibility-rating
you should be worried about (read on):
"After three and a half years of disappointing leadership under George Bush, we need to change course in November and elect a president with a real record of supporting police officers and a lifetime of standing with law enforcement," IBPO President David Holway said in a statement provided by the Kerry campaign.
. ...the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial, which honors more than 16,000 killed in the line of duty. The endorsement of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers is a switch from 2000 when they backed President Bush.
you should be worried about (read on):
"After three and a half years of disappointing leadership under George Bush, we need to change course in November and elect a president with a real record of supporting police officers and a lifetime of standing with law enforcement," IBPO President David Holway said in a statement provided by the Kerry campaign.
. ...the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial, which honors more than 16,000 killed in the line of duty. The endorsement of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers is a switch from 2000 when they backed President Bush.
Message 44/69 18-May-04 @ 01:08 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
MOORE BRINGS DOWN HOUSE: LONGEST STANDING OVATION 'IN HISTORY OF CANNES':
20 mins standing ovation for FAHRENHEIT 9-11, yelling, screaming, cheering... 'This is the longest standing ovation in the history of the festival! Unbelievable!' declared Cannes stalwart Thierry Fremaux. Moore, raising fist, unable to speak over crowd, vows to fight... Controversial scene in film shows wounded American GI in Iraq talking about how Democrats must win election... Movie shows video of U.S. soldiers laughing as they place hoods over Iraqi detainees, with one of them grabbing a prisoner's genitals through a blanket...
20 mins standing ovation for FAHRENHEIT 9-11, yelling, screaming, cheering... 'This is the longest standing ovation in the history of the festival! Unbelievable!' declared Cannes stalwart Thierry Fremaux. Moore, raising fist, unable to speak over crowd, vows to fight... Controversial scene in film shows wounded American GI in Iraq talking about how Democrats must win election... Movie shows video of U.S. soldiers laughing as they place hoods over Iraqi detainees, with one of them grabbing a prisoner's genitals through a blanket...
Message 45/69 18-May-04 @ 04:47 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
DAMN......
A FAT MAN DID THAT?
Holy shit.. maybe since the sheep in Cannes clapped... we should all listen?!?!
A FAT MAN DID THAT?
Holy shit.. maybe since the sheep in Cannes clapped... we should all listen?!?!
Message 46/69 18-May-04 @ 07:14 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i never really know or care about what goes down at the cannes
but
it's good to know a film such as this can get this kind of mad respect there.
when harvey weinstein was asked whether he thought he could get a distributor...
he answered "have i let you down yet?"
it's always weird to see a loser who thinks he's a winner (aka george w bush)
go down finally......and in so losing you get to see what an actual loser
he was ALL along.
but
it's good to know a film such as this can get this kind of mad respect there.
when harvey weinstein was asked whether he thought he could get a distributor...
he answered "have i let you down yet?"
it's always weird to see a loser who thinks he's a winner (aka george w bush)
go down finally......and in so losing you get to see what an actual loser
he was ALL along.
Message 47/69 18-May-04 @ 09:44 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
Who is loosing Clay? GWB and his friends and relations have all moved their decimal points at least 1 to the right, US politics is still controlled by campaign contributions, the concept of a never ending 'war on terror' has not been exposed as a mechanism, the media (more than ever) continue to backscratch rather than report and personal freedom has been usurped by the need for security.
Who has lost Clay?
Who has lost Clay?
Message 48/69 18-May-04 @ 04:10 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
cheds....so you know math.
good for you.
one day i'd like to shake that hand of yours.
spend a little less time stating the obvious and spend more time constructing
a manner by which you might....we all might speak in ammner which actually amounts to something.
of course the vaults have been raided and looted from day 1.....
just as planning and implementing blood-spillage has been given top priority.
that and making sure gays don't marry.
coherent social consciousness is hardly achievable in an environment of pettiness.
everything has to occur in stages.
try to maintain some degree hope...will you?
can you?
good for you.
one day i'd like to shake that hand of yours.
spend a little less time stating the obvious and spend more time constructing
a manner by which you might....we all might speak in ammner which actually amounts to something.
of course the vaults have been raided and looted from day 1.....
just as planning and implementing blood-spillage has been given top priority.
that and making sure gays don't marry.
coherent social consciousness is hardly achievable in an environment of pettiness.
everything has to occur in stages.
try to maintain some degree hope...will you?
can you?
Message 49/69 18-May-04 @ 05:41 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
having missed the clay/cheddar schism, my best guess from what i've caught is that it hinges on this concept of hope.
i think the kind of hope you're talking about is the kind of hope that keeps sucking people back into obeisance.. hope that 'a system' is viable, hope that this next president might actually be a good one..
from my modest perspective, the only viable 'system' is one in which everyone will hope only to represent themselves :p beyond that, i would suggest that hope is an extremely dangerous thing.
i am not willing or prepared to accept other people delineating their identity as less than artists capable of manufacturing what they require (eg. in terms of procedure) in the moment. if the animal becomes less than this, it does not serve itself, and that is where the real issue in the dispension of power lies.
i think the kind of hope you're talking about is the kind of hope that keeps sucking people back into obeisance.. hope that 'a system' is viable, hope that this next president might actually be a good one..
from my modest perspective, the only viable 'system' is one in which everyone will hope only to represent themselves :p beyond that, i would suggest that hope is an extremely dangerous thing.
i am not willing or prepared to accept other people delineating their identity as less than artists capable of manufacturing what they require (eg. in terms of procedure) in the moment. if the animal becomes less than this, it does not serve itself, and that is where the real issue in the dispension of power lies.
Message 50/69 18-May-04 @ 07:38 PM Edit: 18-May-04 | 07:42 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
"GWB and his friends and relations have all moved their decimal points at least 1 to the right, US politics is still controlled by campaign contributions, the concept of a never ending 'war on terror' has not been exposed as a mechanism, the media (more than ever) continue to backscratch rather than report and personal freedom has been usurped by the need for security."
=====================================
I'll agree to that.
In regards to this idea called "hope"; I’ll leave it to you guys to discuss the current applications of such an idea. For me, hope plays no role in how things get done. Hope is analogous to "wishing". Like wishing it would snow tomorrow so you didn't have to go to school, or wishing that someone may choke on a pretzel...
I find it more important to put my energy behind action. Dreamers can dream all day, but they don't get the same shit done as a person who does.
And everyday I watch the news, I see these fucking neoconservative assholes pushing their agenda through Washington, I learn from their mistakes (which are few and far between, but when they occur, are very telling) and the things that they do well. But, they act. they don't hope, they most likely PRAY...but that's a whole different topic.
We really are seeing "the Prince" being played out before us on a global scale. Look around you! A Project for a New American Century
first point to consider; the name of the group. "A Project for a New American Century" Just think about all of the different things that name implies. You can see it blurring up off the hot pavement, that's hubris my friends. They think they are hot fucking shit... and can rub it in the face of any and everyone. And, for the most part...they do, and get away with it.
lets look at a few parts from their statement of principles.
"As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?"
Well, isn't that just twisted? "victory in the Cold War"? What war? more like a 45 year PR campaign. And to suggest that the US should "build upon achievements of past decades" is just disgusting. Does that mean more; war by proxy, the propping up of despots, supporting the violent overthrow of socialist and communist governments by "popular" (as reported by US media) movements which in fact are mainly supported by corporate entities?
Do I need to even go into the last statement seeing the way things are already; go into the things accomplished by this group, who now, and I'm not kidding, run this government?
"Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world."
this list of things are the reason why the US can't sustain influence around the world. notice the second thing mentioned? "defense spending". which we can see clearly is not so defensive. I mean sending money to Israel is considered defense spending?!?!?! so really that is offense spending. they feel that its is in part because of not enough weapons and means to inflict your will upon other countries (thus the inclusion of the idea of foreign affairs) and not enough crafty statesmen to play the world politick chess match, and that we need to change in the direction that things have been headed shortly before 2001.
" We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities."
the Reagan years??? HOLY SHIT! you guys aren't dolts... I'm not even going to go into it... ohh wait... Iran/Contra... the release of the hostages to win the presidency? sorry, I had to.
"Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership."
This I believe to be the most blatantly Machiavellian of all the paragraphs within this statement of principles. of course the US should be prudent. That's a hallmark of the teachings in the Prince. Prudent use of ones power must be exercised or people take notice. But most see that they have abandoned that principle.
"But we cannot safely avoid" the "costs that are associated with" imposing your will by bombs. That's how I read that statement.
"If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests." what exactly are our "fundamental interests"? I'm curious to find out. After reading this statement of principles, I leave with the distinct feeling that "fundamental interests" means to this group of men, that the US should be the only country on the face of the planet with the right to determine how things work, while making it seem like everything is fair and square, and if you can't make it work in your third world nation, and the privatization of the water system has made water as expensive as your rent, then you as a people, just aren't working hard enough at capitalism.
And you see what happens in places like Venezuela, where there is a strong Socialist workers movement, but big business wants more profits...so the companies hire people like this....Columbian Paramilitaries ,who were most likely trained right here in america at the School of America's, or at least trained by a graduate of that fine academy.
The initial, attempted overthrow of Chavez was coordinated by US forces floating off the cost.
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;
• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;
• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;
• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.
lets bring our plans to a nicely sharpened point. some of its bullshit and just a device to steal shit from you. promoting freedom abroad? you can see in Iraq what kind of freedom you get. the turn over of power...June 30...if it happens on time, they government that takes over is a theocracy. where's the freedom in that?
but the last one. that's the kicker. that's another example of the hubris of these people. "an international order friendly...." I really don't like the sound of that. and the audacity of them to include prosperity in the statement. like there's some Devine right to amass wealth like no one has ever done before.
"we have a right to rule the world with a sword(or nukes in this case) and amass cash. try to stop me and you don't love freedom and democracy."
=====================================
I'll agree to that.
In regards to this idea called "hope"; I’ll leave it to you guys to discuss the current applications of such an idea. For me, hope plays no role in how things get done. Hope is analogous to "wishing". Like wishing it would snow tomorrow so you didn't have to go to school, or wishing that someone may choke on a pretzel...
I find it more important to put my energy behind action. Dreamers can dream all day, but they don't get the same shit done as a person who does.
And everyday I watch the news, I see these fucking neoconservative assholes pushing their agenda through Washington, I learn from their mistakes (which are few and far between, but when they occur, are very telling) and the things that they do well. But, they act. they don't hope, they most likely PRAY...but that's a whole different topic.
We really are seeing "the Prince" being played out before us on a global scale. Look around you! A Project for a New American Century
first point to consider; the name of the group. "A Project for a New American Century" Just think about all of the different things that name implies. You can see it blurring up off the hot pavement, that's hubris my friends. They think they are hot fucking shit... and can rub it in the face of any and everyone. And, for the most part...they do, and get away with it.
lets look at a few parts from their statement of principles.
"As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?"
Well, isn't that just twisted? "victory in the Cold War"? What war? more like a 45 year PR campaign. And to suggest that the US should "build upon achievements of past decades" is just disgusting. Does that mean more; war by proxy, the propping up of despots, supporting the violent overthrow of socialist and communist governments by "popular" (as reported by US media) movements which in fact are mainly supported by corporate entities?
Do I need to even go into the last statement seeing the way things are already; go into the things accomplished by this group, who now, and I'm not kidding, run this government?
"Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world."
this list of things are the reason why the US can't sustain influence around the world. notice the second thing mentioned? "defense spending". which we can see clearly is not so defensive. I mean sending money to Israel is considered defense spending?!?!?! so really that is offense spending. they feel that its is in part because of not enough weapons and means to inflict your will upon other countries (thus the inclusion of the idea of foreign affairs) and not enough crafty statesmen to play the world politick chess match, and that we need to change in the direction that things have been headed shortly before 2001.
" We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities."
the Reagan years??? HOLY SHIT! you guys aren't dolts... I'm not even going to go into it... ohh wait... Iran/Contra... the release of the hostages to win the presidency? sorry, I had to.
"Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership."
This I believe to be the most blatantly Machiavellian of all the paragraphs within this statement of principles. of course the US should be prudent. That's a hallmark of the teachings in the Prince. Prudent use of ones power must be exercised or people take notice. But most see that they have abandoned that principle.
"But we cannot safely avoid" the "costs that are associated with" imposing your will by bombs. That's how I read that statement.
"If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests." what exactly are our "fundamental interests"? I'm curious to find out. After reading this statement of principles, I leave with the distinct feeling that "fundamental interests" means to this group of men, that the US should be the only country on the face of the planet with the right to determine how things work, while making it seem like everything is fair and square, and if you can't make it work in your third world nation, and the privatization of the water system has made water as expensive as your rent, then you as a people, just aren't working hard enough at capitalism.
And you see what happens in places like Venezuela, where there is a strong Socialist workers movement, but big business wants more profits...so the companies hire people like this....Columbian Paramilitaries ,who were most likely trained right here in america at the School of America's, or at least trained by a graduate of that fine academy.
The initial, attempted overthrow of Chavez was coordinated by US forces floating off the cost.
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;
• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;
• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;
• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.
lets bring our plans to a nicely sharpened point. some of its bullshit and just a device to steal shit from you. promoting freedom abroad? you can see in Iraq what kind of freedom you get. the turn over of power...June 30...if it happens on time, they government that takes over is a theocracy. where's the freedom in that?
but the last one. that's the kicker. that's another example of the hubris of these people. "an international order friendly...." I really don't like the sound of that. and the audacity of them to include prosperity in the statement. like there's some Devine right to amass wealth like no one has ever done before.
"we have a right to rule the world with a sword(or nukes in this case) and amass cash. try to stop me and you don't love freedom and democracy."
Message 51/69 18-May-04 @ 11:40 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i'm going to get back to hope here since i know something about it's possession and value over the long haul just a little more than my one smart philosophical warrior/ friend for sure...and i'm guessing over
even the new one here.
whatever you might say to paint hope as a wishy-washy bit of mentality...fine....but seriously...when "action man" doth speak so haughtily about what might be affected via the BIG_WALK....you go strap yourself to the tits and run on through some line of dudes.....wow...perhaps even taking 10 (!?) or 100?! of the filthy enemy!!!!?
you! action-man!
you mighty.....
can only HOPE that
1) you don't get your heroic ass shot on your way there....
and 2) that your mighty explosive and brilliantly-executed actions...your phenomenal strategic maneuverings and persuasions actually buy you more than some brief proletarian hooray.
and about 10 times the amount of revenge coming your way.
so many jealous and pious players always involved in any opposition>
like...who's the MOST radical of the radicals until yes...you yourself resort to becoming part of the problem by resorting to said action.
well....also part of the solution but a part of the problem too.
it all gets rather petty.... hope is for the brainless dreamers...BUT
i am war-man.
i am tactical.
i work out!
please.
one day you'll understand what i'm talking about.
step at a time.
evolution.
and perhaps you'll learn to enjoy your role as another voice and spirit in a sea of voices that represent the hopes and dreams and shields and torches of all.
until then i'm watching for the next episode of action-man.
this i wouldn't miss for anything.
but one thing for sure...and i've said this before.....but it seems it bears repeating...
if you ARE indeed action-man...then go for it.....but shut the hell up saying you are.
you'll never even get chance to take the damned guy's poodle out if you keep yakking and saying
i'm gonna do it!
i'm gonna do it!
watch me...hear me!
i'm action-man.
i'll take my version of hope any day......and if i ain't capable of that.....
well i just ain't saying.
even the new one here.
whatever you might say to paint hope as a wishy-washy bit of mentality...fine....but seriously...when "action man" doth speak so haughtily about what might be affected via the BIG_WALK....you go strap yourself to the tits and run on through some line of dudes.....wow...perhaps even taking 10 (!?) or 100?! of the filthy enemy!!!!?
you! action-man!
you mighty.....
can only HOPE that
1) you don't get your heroic ass shot on your way there....
and 2) that your mighty explosive and brilliantly-executed actions...your phenomenal strategic maneuverings and persuasions actually buy you more than some brief proletarian hooray.
and about 10 times the amount of revenge coming your way.
so many jealous and pious players always involved in any opposition>
like...who's the MOST radical of the radicals until yes...you yourself resort to becoming part of the problem by resorting to said action.
well....also part of the solution but a part of the problem too.
it all gets rather petty.... hope is for the brainless dreamers...BUT
i am war-man.
i am tactical.
i work out!
please.
one day you'll understand what i'm talking about.
step at a time.
evolution.
and perhaps you'll learn to enjoy your role as another voice and spirit in a sea of voices that represent the hopes and dreams and shields and torches of all.
until then i'm watching for the next episode of action-man.
this i wouldn't miss for anything.
but one thing for sure...and i've said this before.....but it seems it bears repeating...
if you ARE indeed action-man...then go for it.....but shut the hell up saying you are.
you'll never even get chance to take the damned guy's poodle out if you keep yakking and saying
i'm gonna do it!
i'm gonna do it!
watch me...hear me!
i'm action-man.
i'll take my version of hope any day......and if i ain't capable of that.....
well i just ain't saying.
Message 52/69 18-May-04 @ 11:56 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
I'm not sure where this "action man", condesentia bullshit came from...in addition I'm puzzled as to when and where the idea that I support some sort of violent revolt was snatched out of the nowhere and added to my statment.
I'm simplying stating that hope doesn't get shit done, doing get things completed.
I'm simplying stating that hope doesn't get shit done, doing get things completed.
Message 53/69 19-May-04 @ 05:15 AM Edit: 19-May-04 | 05:20 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
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As I see it action without thought is merely reaction and simple reaction doesn't seem to be a very effective method of dealing with opression,and of course thought without action is merely inaction.
The more thought that goes into a plan of action or into a general philosophy the more chance it has of bearing fruit in the real world.Hope is a bit of a double edged sword,on the one hand it inspires action so it is a vital ingredient of all revolutions and reform movements,on the other hand hope can be used as a way of reinforcing the concept of deferred gratification e.g. the concept of heaven as in just endure this miserable existence and work like a hive insect and in the next life you'll get the honey,life for the poor unfortunates afflicted with this fluffy wuffy notion is simply too terrifying or horrible to contemplate(you're dead,you're manure).Secular version work long,hard and honestly then reap the reward of rosy retirement.What can I say but Enron.
Speaking of Chavez I reckon it won't be long before the US makes another more concerted attempt to get rid of his government.Venezeula is far too important to the US to be allowed to remain in socialist hands.Watch this space for another coup and it will be a bloody one.
If you would be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity,how would you like the world to be Dissonance?
The more thought that goes into a plan of action or into a general philosophy the more chance it has of bearing fruit in the real world.Hope is a bit of a double edged sword,on the one hand it inspires action so it is a vital ingredient of all revolutions and reform movements,on the other hand hope can be used as a way of reinforcing the concept of deferred gratification e.g. the concept of heaven as in just endure this miserable existence and work like a hive insect and in the next life you'll get the honey,life for the poor unfortunates afflicted with this fluffy wuffy notion is simply too terrifying or horrible to contemplate(you're dead,you're manure).Secular version work long,hard and honestly then reap the reward of rosy retirement.What can I say but Enron.
Speaking of Chavez I reckon it won't be long before the US makes another more concerted attempt to get rid of his government.Venezeula is far too important to the US to be allowed to remain in socialist hands.Watch this space for another coup and it will be a bloody one.
If you would be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity,how would you like the world to be Dissonance?
Message 54/69 19-May-04 @ 05:49 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
I love watching the way people attack so condescendingly on here. people they dont know from adam.
Message 55/69 19-May-04 @ 10:20 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
"they don't get the same shit done"
Maybe doing shit IS the problem. Action as error. Whats wrong with an unfulfilled potential, so what we dont go out there and give one for the Zipper or push that extra inch. This lifestyle call that we must "be all we can be®" is just a hip way of keeping us moving.
Lets think about moving. I believe that our technological advances far outstrip our cultural or social or phiolisophical development so why do we keep pushing harder and harder to go somewhere we haven't figured out (or had time or inclination to figure out) whether we want to go to or not. We are dough of bread and circuses, we are a mass that is stimulated to move, our direction (and misidrection) is controlled within culture, law and between them our comprehension of expectation. Democracy does not include autonomy as a choice. And if this is paranoia then what, our world is the result of a firefight of needs, greed, power and death, still none too pretty.
"It's not as bad as all that Cheds old mate..."
At no time in our past have species and diversity been so consciously eroded, infact i think it is becoming expected that people will live everywhere and all other species are second class citizens to the 'advancement of man'. People spoor. And we, with our liberal ears bored with old news can nix deforrestation and acceptable pollution and flip channels to twist old emotions again and feel something about something (see 'war in Iraq', '4 more years', 'MIddle Eastern Situation', 'gay marraige', ' 'prices at the pumps'.
About about action. Whats the difference between a redneck with a gun and a bleeding heart liberal with a gun. Nothing at all, both believe they are doing the right thing and their actions will be excused in the fullness of time.
Maybe doing shit IS the problem. Action as error. Whats wrong with an unfulfilled potential, so what we dont go out there and give one for the Zipper or push that extra inch. This lifestyle call that we must "be all we can be®" is just a hip way of keeping us moving.
Lets think about moving. I believe that our technological advances far outstrip our cultural or social or phiolisophical development so why do we keep pushing harder and harder to go somewhere we haven't figured out (or had time or inclination to figure out) whether we want to go to or not. We are dough of bread and circuses, we are a mass that is stimulated to move, our direction (and misidrection) is controlled within culture, law and between them our comprehension of expectation. Democracy does not include autonomy as a choice. And if this is paranoia then what, our world is the result of a firefight of needs, greed, power and death, still none too pretty.
"It's not as bad as all that Cheds old mate..."
At no time in our past have species and diversity been so consciously eroded, infact i think it is becoming expected that people will live everywhere and all other species are second class citizens to the 'advancement of man'. People spoor. And we, with our liberal ears bored with old news can nix deforrestation and acceptable pollution and flip channels to twist old emotions again and feel something about something (see 'war in Iraq', '4 more years', 'MIddle Eastern Situation', 'gay marraige', ' 'prices at the pumps'.
About about action. Whats the difference between a redneck with a gun and a bleeding heart liberal with a gun. Nothing at all, both believe they are doing the right thing and their actions will be excused in the fullness of time.
Message 56/69 19-May-04 @ 04:32 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
what greenpeace successfully pulled-off in columbia or brazil last week....
physically attaching themselves to cranes and ships trying to offload genetically-altered soy~
after that government had voted to not allow for such import
into it's population (for obvious health concerns).......
now this is action of the sort which makes absolute sense.
i only give thanks that it was a private ship attempting to make the delivery and not the us government.
i'm pretty sure some ordinance would've suggested that firing upon the protesters would've been justified due to the importance of feeding a country a potentially-hazardous product which it did not want to eat.
etc.
in any kind of true democracy.....talk is close to action.
dialog constitutes exchange and interaction.
the greeks established that and we, here, have a forum to allow for such tendencies in ourselves.
and don't think i don't have this discussion going on in the non-virtual world.
and not just with liberals either.
that's not the wall-of-consciousness we're trying to scale here.
and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better.
physically attaching themselves to cranes and ships trying to offload genetically-altered soy~
after that government had voted to not allow for such import
into it's population (for obvious health concerns).......
now this is action of the sort which makes absolute sense.
i only give thanks that it was a private ship attempting to make the delivery and not the us government.
i'm pretty sure some ordinance would've suggested that firing upon the protesters would've been justified due to the importance of feeding a country a potentially-hazardous product which it did not want to eat.
etc.
in any kind of true democracy.....talk is close to action.
dialog constitutes exchange and interaction.
the greeks established that and we, here, have a forum to allow for such tendencies in ourselves.
and don't think i don't have this discussion going on in the non-virtual world.
and not just with liberals either.
that's not the wall-of-consciousness we're trying to scale here.
and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better.
Message 57/69 19-May-04 @ 04:46 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
pict
Posts: 1005
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Dialogue.
Message 58/69 19-May-04 @ 05:20 PM Edit: 19-May-04 | 05:21 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
"and sorry if anyone felt condescended to.
you should know better."
well, why don't you re-read what you typed... then tell me how it can come across as anything but...
you know, its funny. I'm by no means saying that there is no room for discussion. its a hallmark of change, the catalyst for cognitive dissonance in certain cases. and like I stated before, sometimes you have to sit back and watch...like with the PNAC (Project for a New American Century). get an idea of how they're playing ball so that you can properly defend.
you should know better."
well, why don't you re-read what you typed... then tell me how it can come across as anything but...
you know, its funny. I'm by no means saying that there is no room for discussion. its a hallmark of change, the catalyst for cognitive dissonance in certain cases. and like I stated before, sometimes you have to sit back and watch...like with the PNAC (Project for a New American Century). get an idea of how they're playing ball so that you can properly defend.
Message 59/69 19-May-04 @ 05:57 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
again, cheddar expresses somethnig i can get with.. this inaction thing.. instead of a government addressing people's needs, how about a government that will reliably forego addressing people's needs.. instead of religions that take actions to save your soul, hows about some that effectively take no actions to save your soul..
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
Message 60/69 19-May-04 @ 05:57 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
again, cheddar expresses somethnig i can get with.. this inaction thing.. instead of a government addressing people's needs, how about a government that will reliably forego addressing people's needs.. instead of religions that take actions to save your soul, hows about some that effectively take no actions to save your soul..
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
now you're really saying something that means something. it's the reason that john trubee and the ugly janitors of america was so fucking funny when the prank phone called guy goes "get the hell off my back and stop handing me your bullshit"
THAT's correct fucking government.
Message 61/69 20-May-04 @ 03:13 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i was a full-time janitor for 3 years plus.
i think eventually we might see a world where people address people's needs
and not those of just a powerful elite.
i think when people act to save themselves as a whole....they will eventually be redeemed.
but to seek to do it on a soul by soul basis seems to deny the fact that
we all are one.
it's just the paradox of man.
we are both individual and of a collective.
make the best of it i say.
i think eventually we might see a world where people address people's needs
and not those of just a powerful elite.
i think when people act to save themselves as a whole....they will eventually be redeemed.
but to seek to do it on a soul by soul basis seems to deny the fact that
we all are one.
it's just the paradox of man.
we are both individual and of a collective.
make the best of it i say.
Message 62/69 20-May-04 @ 05:54 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i was a janitor as well, but you've never borne the title "professional ass wiper" have you :p
that world where people address concrete needs is there.. it always has been there.. in the 'indigenous villages' of thailand where no one fucks with them because they have nothing of strategic value and have what they need and thus are not to be swayed, you'll find straightforward respect for the fact of life.
i'll be jiggered.. harmony out of a simple, straightforward relationship with nature.
that world where people address concrete needs is there.. it always has been there.. in the 'indigenous villages' of thailand where no one fucks with them because they have nothing of strategic value and have what they need and thus are not to be swayed, you'll find straightforward respect for the fact of life.
i'll be jiggered.. harmony out of a simple, straightforward relationship with nature.
Message 63/69 21-May-04 @ 03:15 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
....no rush...nature will always have a warm place you i'm sure.
: )
: )
Message 64/69 21-May-04 @ 03:31 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
hey O/D....buzz-flash is selling the robert macnamara documentary-movie on dvd.
phillip glass did the music.....wow>
i'm imagining that would be pretty tingling.
that war shaped me....i lost my dad then.
needless to say...i'm AGAINST>
web-link
phillip glass did the music.....wow>
i'm imagining that would be pretty tingling.
that war shaped me....i lost my dad then.
needless to say...i'm AGAINST>
web-link
Message 65/69 24-May-04 @ 04:21 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
[image file]
Fahrenheit 911 has won the Palm d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival, making it the first documentary since 1956 to take top honors. During his acceptance speech, Michael Moore said he hoped that the award would help the film find a distributor in North America. You may recall that Disney blocked distribution of the film, deeming it too political.
moron.org
Message 66/69 24-May-04 @ 06:10 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
oh, it'll get played... before the election, too. There are plenty of like-minded individuals of influence in Hollywood and the cannes award will be all they need to justify greenlighting distribution for this film.
God bless that fat windbag... America needs to see this movie.
God bless that fat windbag... America needs to see this movie.
Message 67/69 24-May-04 @ 06:22 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
out of sheer curiosity, was his "palme d'or" news ? was it even mentionned ?
Message 68/69 24-May-04 @ 06:30 PM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
i've seen it mentioned on several forums at least. Of course, these are often the people who care about such things.
But yeah, if one follow entertainment news at least, I think one has heard about it.
But yeah, if one follow entertainment news at least, I think one has heard about it.
Message 69/69 26-May-04 @ 12:57 AM - RE: speaking of Michael Moore.....
oddly enough....this is what one finds when going to moore's website:
Not Found
The requested URL /mustread/index.php was not found on this server.
not only his site but same for dog eat dog...the company which runs his productions.
either 1) he's decided to go to another handler of his site....it was rumoured a month or so ago that he was considering a candian web-site company.....
or 2) the right-wing machine has managed to make his viewpoint
less available to the public....somehow.
i'm guessing it's the first option.....hoping at least.
it's been over 2 days now with no announcement of any move.
Not Found
The requested URL /mustread/index.php was not found on this server.
not only his site but same for dog eat dog...the company which runs his productions.
either 1) he's decided to go to another handler of his site....it was rumoured a month or so ago that he was considering a candian web-site company.....
or 2) the right-wing machine has managed to make his viewpoint
less available to the public....somehow.
i'm guessing it's the first option.....hoping at least.
it's been over 2 days now with no announcement of any move.
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