Forums - Theory / composition / technique
Subject: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Viewing all 29 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3
Original Message 1/29 15-Apr-00 @ 08:53 AM - what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 2/29 15-Apr-00 @ 01:32 PM - what scale is this? - Pt_2
well... couldnt do it... tried every conceiveable html variant i know to make form input objects 'size', no luck... the only way would be to have a permenent horizontal scrolling page here... or make the whole site wider, in which case it'd fuck up on 800x600 small screens
Message 3/29 15-Apr-00 @ 01:33 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Well, whoever told you that didn't know shit - each note has 3 possible names and you don't have to use one all the time. For example 'A#' is also B flat and also C double flat (you can have double sharps and flats). The reason for this is as follows, as an example I'll use the F major scale.
So you know F major has one black key, but is it A# or Bb? It's Bb - F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E. This is because you don't use the B in the scale, but you do use A so you can't sharpen it in the key sig. Note the continuity in the scale - you never 'miss' a letter out. In diatonic scales you must always stick to this continuity and that's why there are both sharps and flats. Also you can't mix sharps and flats in the same key signature, its either all sharps, all flats or neither.
If we look at your G# major scale, you miss out the A and the E and repeat C and G. It sounds the same as a G# major scale but it isn't
You wrote - G#, Bflat, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#
The real scale - G#,A#,B#,C#,D#,E#,F#(G#).
See how its continuous, no letters repeated and no mixture of sharps and flats. BUT that's a lot of sharps in the key sig (7) and it's fiddly to work with so as a convention instead of calling it G# major we write it as Ab major (4 flats), sounds exactly the same but easier to write and understand;
Ab major: Ab,Bb,C,Db,Eb,F,G,(Ab).
In the same way, E# major (E#,Fx,Gx,A#,B#,Cx,Dx,E# x=double sharp) is exactly the same as F major, but we don't write it that way because it's more effort and harder to understand.
It's hard to explain things and not sound patronising ;-) if I come across that way it's not intentional, just trying to clarify things.
Message 4/29 15-Apr-00 @ 01:54 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
The exceptions are the keys of F# major and Gb major - both have 6 sharps/flats repectively so there is no reason to choose one over the other, depends on whether you like sharps more than flats I suppose.
Message 5/29 15-Apr-00 @ 03:55 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
"You wrote - G#, Bflat, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#
The real scale - G#,A#,B#,C#,D#,E#,F#(G#)."
Always remember the leading note has 2 b sharpened, but u knew that already coz u got it right when u spelt it enharmonicaly differently....
Right, u've been a busy fella havent u K!?!?! Well, dont worry with the amount of keys on the picture, cant u scrap it alltogether & make a new 1 that looks more like a keyboard, i.e: enabling the black notes 2 light up orange-it'd realy help. The scrolling page ting would prolly b the best thing if there's no way of havin more then 1 keyboard picture in each post, that'd help 4 examples....
K, since u sayd the other thread was gettin 2 long, u'd better go bak & fix what u wrote in yer last entry so no1 gets confused....basicaly u wrote that the major scale is constructed like this:
"like major Keys/scales are pretty simple to work out... Just start on a Given note, and walk up the keyboard always using the same spacing:
tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone"
U say u listen 2 Debussy but I'd leave the whole tone scales out 4 the mo if u dont want 2 confuse any1-besides if u immagin your scale started on C4 it'd end on Eflat5 wouldnt it? These scales (if u dont include the semitone u put in at the end) have a particular spacey quality (good 4 sci-fi music...) coz the intervals are symmetric and our ears are tuned 2 the diatonic scales so it sounds new.
This is how OUR major scale is constructed: (K, what's the tag 4 a break??? is it this?:
TONE-TONE-SEMITONE-TONE-TONE-TONE-SEMITONE
Immagine we're startin on C. Between C & D there r 2 semitones, now think of the distance between E & F...no black note is there? Same with B & C, just a semitone in between-innit.
Oh...& this bit:
"RELATIVE minor scales... knowing the RELATIVE MINOR KEY to a Given MAJOR KEY is cool... and simple....
The relative Minor to a Major... the MAJOR starts on the 3rd of the Minor... so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards: - semitone - tone - tone, (the begining of the Relative-minor scale backwards) to find the relative minor key of a given MAJOR key"
Errrrrrrrr, "so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards" well, it's your website...but howsabout this?
If your piece is in a Major key, ie: the pattern I've just described, then using it's Relative minor can instantly bring a "dark" feel 2 your choon. The notes of your new key are "relative" 2 those of the original key, yet u r now in a minor, more somber sounding mode. Think of C Major, sharpen the 5th and harmony's drawin u in2 A minor. Basicaly, K, tellin'em 2 work out the relative major "from" the minor is no use is it?? How r they gonna learn how 2 figure out key sigatures? the reason I braught up the whole realtive minor thing is coz if u could easily understand the scale from this perspective: Gminor is Bflat Major's relative minor. U gotta start somewhere, start with understanding Bflat Major, the seccond flat scale u'd ever learn...add a "leading" note 2 "draw" the harmony towords g minor....
I sort of was hoping 4 a more "interactive" process...I can "tel" u all of this but if u tryed it out 4 yourselfs, step by step at least we'd b sure u all understand what the building blocks r....there's no point in me gettin in2 Trance/garage/hardcore chord progressions if u havent even digested the 1st chunck-is there?
So, FEED BACK please. & no silly bizznizz, coz I'm REALY busy these days I've got 14 000 words and "some such useless meaningless crap.... " (as it was so encouragingly put) 2 do in the next few weeks. This post is all 4 a good causa but if people start takin the piss I wont waist my time.
Message 6/29 15-Apr-00 @ 04:19 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 7/29 15-Apr-00 @ 04:19 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 8/29 15-Apr-00 @ 04:21 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 10/29 15-Apr-00 @ 09:00 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 11/29 15-Apr-00 @ 11:01 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
<
one of these:
br
and one of these:
>
all typed together. Or you could use the paragraph tag which uses a "p" instead of a "br"... You need to type the break tag twice for a line of white space, the paragraph gives it to you automatically. You can always "View Source" on any web page if you're curious about how the html that's there works.
The scale or key is usually an agreed on convention by the musicians performing a piece before the performance of the piece begins, at least in my experience. And usually those scales will be fairly conventional -- majors, minors and modes thereof. Granted some crusty old jazz guys might start playing a Bb Javanese, an A Pelog or an E Hindu (the three scales I posted in the last thread) if you're trying to sit in with them and they want to let you know you're not worthy.
Kid Dik, the best way to start out on this stuff is learn to play some songs. You learn by osmosis if you feel like you're actually playing music. Nobody should start out the journey worrying about the more complicated or esoteric theory behind modal improvisation or composing in modified scales. You pick stuff up as you go along. Maybe take some lessons. There's a reason piano teachers start kids off with "Chopsticks" and not Scriabin.
I don't think keyboard makers are going to get away from the current key layout any time soon. Millions of people have come to terms with those black keys and you can too.
I started in a basement punk bands in the early '80s playing bass & guitar knowing a moveable major scale and 2 forms of barre chords. And everything I've picked up in the meantime has come through nice people showing me things (and correcting me), reading and experimenting. I've been involved with music semi-professionally since '84 and almost everyone I've had the pleasure to work with shares up their knowledge unconditionally. Only a few would choose to belittle people they felt weren't as far along the journey as themselves. We've got a name for that sort of person, now don't we. Oh, and anyone who tells you they're figured everything out is lying. You stop learning about this stuff when you die.
BTW, in a Keyboard mag interview in the early '90s, one of the guys in Coldcut said something along the lines of "We've found that if you put three fingers on white keys, each one separated by a white key, they make this thing called a chord. But that's about as far as we want to go with that." Draw your own conclusion.
Message 12/29 15-Apr-00 @ 11:34 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Now that is a jorney I AM just beginning. Its also really why I'm learning the theory. I seems to my unmidified eyes that midi is really built around our western note system, and I do need to learn midi so...
Message 13/29 16-Apr-00 @ 12:38 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
ok.. I fixed the 'not creating paragraphs' bit.. it now works like the other forums,.. just leave line breaks with a space between 'em to create paragraphs...
also due to Fannies request.. another octave is added... just see if it works ok first...
'dont want another domestic'... (that was funny i concede)
right, i'm just testing the added octave now.. so ignore
Message 14/29 16-Apr-00 @ 12:53 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Never the less, you have given your time, and many others have as well, and I thank you all. And just remember, anyone can stay young, so long as they think they can fly close to the sun.
Message 15/29 16-Apr-00 @ 03:10 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
I still think more light and less heat would be helpful around here, which was kind of the point of my rambling post. Harmony, Annie, whatever you wanna be called, do you think you can post without somehow magically making yourself the topic?
Message 16/29 16-Apr-00 @ 03:12 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 17/29 16-Apr-00 @ 05:54 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 18/29 16-Apr-00 @ 02:31 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 19/29 17-Apr-00 @ 09:01 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Right, 1 question...it's all good 4 the harmony side but theory aslo includes rythm....nationalism aside, would it b more helpful 2 go the english or american way? We refer 2 notes as "brethe, minum, crotchet, quaiver...." americans call'em "full, half, quater, 8th, 16th...". What's the proportion of Europeans/Americans vistin DT? Issues like that realy piss me off I'm not gonna opt 4 the english sytem just bacause i was braught up here-music itself is an international language so there shouldnt b any confution inflicted by national boundries....
Well, concert A is 440Hz, at least we all agree on that....but what d'u think bout the rythms?
Message 20/29 17-Apr-00 @ 08:08 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 21/29 18-Apr-00 @ 12:44 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 22/29 18-Apr-00 @ 01:06 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
o = semibreve (whole note)
o| = minim (half note)
x| = crotchet (quarter)
x|\ = quaver (eighth)
x|\\ = semiquaver (sixteenth) etc.
Hmm?
Message 23/29 18-Apr-00 @ 01:52 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 24/29 18-Apr-00 @ 02:50 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 25/29 22-Apr-00 @ 09:31 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Personally, I learnt to read rhythms as a youngster, we'd call 'em tas, tee-tees', tee-tikas, etc.
Refer to them with the same language as you might count them out, if you not operating on the 1-e-and-a...blah blah..
You may not really have to worry about this, but it really is helpful if you're playing something with a complex rhythm. Like, as if you classical slaggers might actually downgrade yourself to play on your own instrument some music from far greater composer than yourself.....whatever eh?
raph
Message 26/29 22-Apr-00 @ 10:02 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
Message 27/29 24-Apr-00 @ 05:34 AM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
jokes within jokes man....jokes within jokes
Message 28/29 25-Apr-00 @ 04:48 PM - RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2
I'll be more help 2 u in a few weeks....(if u still wanna do the theory ting)
DT, U'LL B GLAD 2 HEAR I WONT B HERE WITH MY RANDOM JIBBERIN 4 A BIT....
Viewing all 29 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3
There are 29 total messages for this topic
Reply to Thread
You need to register/login to use the forum.
Click here to Signup or Login !
[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]
Back to Forum