 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: SONAR - so close but......
Viewing all 73 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 8
Original Message 1/73 19-Apr-03 @ 01:43 PM Edit: 19-Apr-03 | 01:46 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
ok.... this is for Mr Cakewalk - I still didnt do the SONAR2 review - why?.... well, the updates are great -
asio?.. excellent, it opens up the programme to a whole bunch of users with older machines or non wdm driver cards.
rewire? - KILLER! - this is the nail in the coffin for Logic PC users and a great tempter to switch sequencer rather than switch to mac
Drum map? - brilliant! - it had to be added....
Now add to that SONAR's OTHER great stuff, like crystal clear audio, the best metering, top midi spec's etc and all in all SONAR should be 'The One' !
however.... I feel there is a few niggles. For me, these few small issues need to be sorted out...
I STILL feel that the LACK of some of these things is caused by a predominance of non-dance making users
Now these are the things which hold me back - If I do the review it would say:
"yes, sonar2 has all this great new stuff, asio, rewire, blah blah... BUT..."
and end the review with a list of those issues...
These are the issues:
1. DROP-OUTS while editing in loop mode - ALL dance makers create music like this - we loop a 2 bar section, we add/move notes & adjust velocity & controller nodes etc etc & tweak our pattern until it grooves just right
For NON-dance making the same is true - When I do a rock/song track, I always get the guitar down to a click/basic beat... Then loop a section and while looping I go into drum-edit and tweak the drum pattern until it grooves right... then copy that across the song length - Then I go in and add rolls and create join sections and also create my main chorus pattern etc.... I ALWAYS do this by looping a section of a few bars to concentrate on tweaking the drum or bass pattern etc
Now SONAR has this audio DROP-OUT glitch when editing - NO OTHER SEQUENCER DOES THIS!!
Because, ONLY SONAR does this of ALL the sequencers (including Fruity & Orion etc) it makes SONAR appear to be bugged - you just DON'T expect this or get this in a modern sequencer
Ok THAT is the big killer.... I couldn't adopt SONAR while this problem exists - HOURS sometimes DAYS of loop editing would become a nightmare with this continual audio glitching
Now on to other more MINOR issues - whilst MINOR compared to the drop-out glitch, these other issues I feel ARE VERY important... Not just to a newcomer to the sequencer, BUT especiualy to users who might cross-grade!
1. NO ABILITY TO CHOOSE KEY COMMANDS - ok SONAR has got key commands... BUT THEY ARE RESTRICTED! - SONAR tells you which keys you CAN use... you CANNOT choose!!
Now for example, I have a multimedia qwerty board - Nice!... and I LIKE to assign the STOP/PLAY/FWD/REW commands in the s/w host sequencer to those dedicated buttons... But I can't do it with SONAR!!
I like to assign certain functions to key commands - sadly not ALL menu commands appear to be listed either -
MY SOLUTION: Give ALL menu item dialog panels a LEARN BUTTON - so, lets say you open one of the midi dialog menu items via the text menu's - the box/panel opens - what a joy it'd be IF that same panel ALSO had a 'LEARN QWERTY KEY' button - and I was NOT restricted to choose from a limited selection of CTRL+ key sequences - I SHOULD be able to choose a simple key command if I like - for example I would want to ASSIGN LEFT/RIGHT Loop-Point set to my L & R keys - so, the cursor is at position 9.01 - I hit the 'L' key and the left locator sets to that position - etc etc - this is the sort of simplicity we've come to expect now from s/w's like NI's synths (controller assign), Fruity & Orion etc also do this as do many other s/w's
anyways - that whole 'Key-Commands' section is too restricted -
This is made FAR WOSE for cross-grading users who might have spent years using key commands with their previous sequencer only to find they CANNOT switch to SONAR and assign those same keys to the tasks they use most frequently - this makes cross-grading a far more painful business learning a whole NEW set of key commands which might be far less intuitive due to the fact SONAR forces you to choose from a limited selection of key-commands and ALL require two bloody hands to perform in most cases due to having to use the blasted CTRL press with ALL key commands.
Or what about studio owners who are required to install & use multiple sequencer to satisfy clients - it's most important to these users to be able to assign the same qwerty keys to commands common to all the sequencers they use.
2. The DRUM MAP - Brilliant addition!! - it had to be added... BUT there is a BIG oversight - this oversight might be simple to fix, but I can't see WHY it's missing! - The problem is this:
There is NO dialog box to fix NOTE LENGTH - this is VERY important when programming drums to trigger samples because MANY users utilise midi note length to control sample trigger length - Where this problem manifests itself worst is when you open a Drum-Map WITH THE DIAMONDS for notes, and start to input notes - but the note length is fixed to 1/4 notes - then you put in some hat notes as 16ths, finaly you close the editor and view the pattern-clip on the arrange-page and see it is LONGER than the ONE-BAR you programmed because the LONg notes extend out beyond the end of the pattern - this results in scrappy pattern which then have to be RE-EDITED painfuly slowly toi adjust the note Length.
Now yes, I KNOW you CAN choose from various note lengths above the drum-map - BUt what is this PHOBIA Cakewalk has against anything smaller than a 32nd or 64th note? - there is NO BUTTON to choose 64th note - and you MAY want your note length to be WAY smaller than a 64th!! - OK so THAT is a problem - why oh why cannot you ADD a NOTE LENGTH box in the drum-map with each drum-map ROW? - OR at the top at least add a button for 64ths or better still a whole NOTE-LENGTH dialog-box that opens where you can input a note length of a 54th, or even smaller if required than a 64th !
3. ARRANGE-PAGE GRID - almost non-existant! - dragging/copying and moving pattern CLIPS around at anything except bar-divisions is a complete NIGHTMARE!! - WHY should I have to waste time zooming in each time i want to drag a clip to a division position of a bar?... PLEASE PLEASE add an option to devide the arrange-page grid into SUB-DIVISIONS - you CANNOT work on pattern-based music editing EFFICIENTLY without this sub-devided grid.... and besides... WHY ARE SUB-DIVISIONS OF BARS MISSING!!.... what's the point of NOT offering sub-divisions?... how hard can that be to implement? - and for those who DON'T want it... FINE!!... they can simply NOT use it or switch it off or use simple bar-length divisions as usual!! - so this EXCLUSION TO ME IS POINTLESS!
ALSO this leads to another question - SONAR has NODE-BASED envelope editing for FX sends, Volume, Pan, Fx & VSTi/DXi parameters - GREAT!!... but how on earth are you supposed to edit In a fast Aux-send 'blip' at exactly beat3 of a bar when NO grid divisions are there to assist you lining up the NODE with bar SUB-position BEAT XX.3.00 OR WHATEVER???? -
C'mon seriously! - I NEED to place nodes EXACTLY at position relative to the bar/clip length, and where is my visual guide?
To me this is ANOTHER reason why it is IMPERATIVE that SONAR add's BAR-DIVISIONS on the arrange-page grid - Node based editing WITHOUT a guide grid is about as pointless as trying to crop images in photoshop to a desired size with no Rullers available - No-one could do it and no-one would use a graphic's programme without a point/pica/cm grid to work to would they??!! - So c'mon cakewalk - get this feature PROPERLY finished and implemented - how hard can it be to add grid divisions and a dialog box to set arrange-page grid divisions and Snap resolution
4. CLIP SIZES - Ok - this to me is VERY important - When working on PATTERN-BLOCK created arranements - since the year dot when old atari sequencers etc ruled the earth, pattern=based music was created with bar-sized blocks (Clips) -
WHY was pattern-based music was created with exactly bar-sized blocks ???? - SIMPLE!! - because when you CUT a bar length to be SMALLER than a bar, these reduced sized blocks are simply and EASILY visible and recognisable as DISTINCTLY different in size to the normal pattern - IF a pattern ends with a sustained note which extends OUTSIDE the right-boundary of a clip, then sure, the CLIP extends.... anyways my problem is this: SONAR ALWAYS sets CLIP-SIZE to show the contents - a CLIP (pattern-block) in SONAR is never a bar-length!!!! - this results ina an arrange-page littered with different-sized blocks/clips - this is both messy visualy and confusing when moving around blocks of clips - when added to an arrange-page with NO bar divisions grid, this makes the whole editing process laborious and tiresome and you have to think about things too much -
So my request is simple - PLEASE PLEASE add an option in PREFERENCES - it would say something like this:
'FORCE ALL PATTERN CLIPS TO FULL BAR-LENGTHS' - ticking this option would force any bar which contains a partial of notes to display as a full bar-length block/clip
5. SNAP FOR DRAGGING CLIP-BOUNDARY SIZES - again this related to the LACK of an arrange-page grid.... when you try to drag a created CLIP to be a full bar-length, the SNAP is very weak... and it's impossible really to see if the clip boundary has been dragged to a proper full bar-length unless you interrupt editing to zoom-in and check because the SNAP isn't 'distinct' enuff.
also where on EARTH is the snap setting for divisions of bars? - If i want to drag a clip boundary so it ends on exactly beat 3 of the bar how on earth do you acheive this with NO bar divisions visible on the grid and NO snap??.... it's impossible almost and certainly impossible unless you zoom RIGHT IN to a very close-up zoom-in - this wastes yet MORE time.
The Arrange-Page needs a grid dialog-box where you can quickly change the divisions and snap divisions DIFFERENTLY... PLEASE add that for god's sake!
Ok there is some moans - but they are 100% realistic moans imo - My problem is this therefore - I WANT to get into SONAR - I'd LIKE the option to choose to switch platform... But every time i go to use SONAR, the glitching audio-dropouts while editing are just TOO annoying!!...
Then on top of that, I find these fundamental missing options are SUCH a hindrance, I just get irritated with the programme and regardless of HOW GOOD the rest of it is, these small oversights are so infuriating that I just give up, because to me it's immaterial how GOOD some of the features are in a sequencer when such basic fundamental issues are glaringly omitted or flawed - What is worst is that these problems are so fundamentaly simple to change - it's nothing like the work required to implement REWIRE for example or ASIO drivers or a whole drum-map
Ok... that's your lot... what do you think?... I can tell you 100% THESE issues go along way to NOT choosing asonar FOR DANCE music which is pattern-based. It seems to me that SONAR is aimed more (still) at users who record audio and mostly use midi to complement a real audio based production... acoustic and other types of rock etc would be ideal... But for music created using MOSTLY pattern-blocks...... ??
There is a few other things I'd like to see, but that's not complaints or criticism's, just rather things (a few) which could be added to make SONAR trash the competition totaly - such as... using REWIRE, SONAR will read the drum-names in RE-DRUM and they appear in the piano-roll when you assign a midi track to RE-DRUM and open the PIANO-ROLL editor to create a pattern.... BUT, what would be superb would be a button to simply switch the piano-roll to a drum-map while RETAINING those drum-names - but that doesn't seem to be possible - perhaps I missed it - But it seems a great shame that SONAR can query REASON's Re-DRUM and grab the drum-names of the actual loaded samples, but then you cannot do that with a drum-map which is designed for creating/editing drums in the first place - Did I miss a way to do this?... I hope so - If not, can THIS be implemented?? - that would be a good kudos over the competition & it would RULE!!
So - what do you think?... can this edit glitching be solved?... it has to basicalY!! - because while it isn't, it makes smaller programmes from smaller indie s/w houses like Orion & Fruity seem superior, or at the least because SONAR is the ONLY sequencer which glitches while editing it makes SONAR seem 'flawed' - NOT a good sign - The other criticisms?... they REALLY need sorting out
If all that gets sorted I'd say SONAR was the best sequencer on the market
Oh yes - one last issue/suggestion - the PATTERN BRUSH - This is yet another KILLER feature - For dance music makers it's a really SUPERB feature - my God!... the HOURS I could save having all my favourite drum hi-hat & percussions pattern and arp-pattern etc for synths available at the click & dragging of the mouse is a feature that SLAYS the competition for dance creation!!
ok.... so er... WHY IS IT SO LABORIOUS TO CREATE/SAVE a pattern?... C'MON GUYS! - seriously - why doesnt the editor in piano-roll or drum-map have a SIMPLE button labelled:
'SAVE SELECTED NOTES BETWEEN LOCATORS AS BRUSH-PATTERN'
Get THAT sorted and this feature will be super-strong - but keep it so that creating a brush-pattern takes 4 or 5 moves and lots of farting about and it weakens the work-flow - that's a suggestion i think would be WELL worth implementing!!
and again - a proper FLEXIBLE Key-Commands section would go along way to helping to solve these tweaks to make SONAR the KILLER dance application sequencer - because after all, I didn't even mention stuff like the groove-clip stuff which already is great & the fact it's video float section is the best!!
Ok... Nuff ranting - BUT PLEASE.... make this sequencer right for dance... it's ALMOST there... almost!
asio?.. excellent, it opens up the programme to a whole bunch of users with older machines or non wdm driver cards.
rewire? - KILLER! - this is the nail in the coffin for Logic PC users and a great tempter to switch sequencer rather than switch to mac
Drum map? - brilliant! - it had to be added....
Now add to that SONAR's OTHER great stuff, like crystal clear audio, the best metering, top midi spec's etc and all in all SONAR should be 'The One' !
however.... I feel there is a few niggles. For me, these few small issues need to be sorted out...
I STILL feel that the LACK of some of these things is caused by a predominance of non-dance making users
Now these are the things which hold me back - If I do the review it would say:
"yes, sonar2 has all this great new stuff, asio, rewire, blah blah... BUT..."
and end the review with a list of those issues...
These are the issues:
1. DROP-OUTS while editing in loop mode - ALL dance makers create music like this - we loop a 2 bar section, we add/move notes & adjust velocity & controller nodes etc etc & tweak our pattern until it grooves just right
For NON-dance making the same is true - When I do a rock/song track, I always get the guitar down to a click/basic beat... Then loop a section and while looping I go into drum-edit and tweak the drum pattern until it grooves right... then copy that across the song length - Then I go in and add rolls and create join sections and also create my main chorus pattern etc.... I ALWAYS do this by looping a section of a few bars to concentrate on tweaking the drum or bass pattern etc
Now SONAR has this audio DROP-OUT glitch when editing - NO OTHER SEQUENCER DOES THIS!!
Because, ONLY SONAR does this of ALL the sequencers (including Fruity & Orion etc) it makes SONAR appear to be bugged - you just DON'T expect this or get this in a modern sequencer
Ok THAT is the big killer.... I couldn't adopt SONAR while this problem exists - HOURS sometimes DAYS of loop editing would become a nightmare with this continual audio glitching
Now on to other more MINOR issues - whilst MINOR compared to the drop-out glitch, these other issues I feel ARE VERY important... Not just to a newcomer to the sequencer, BUT especiualy to users who might cross-grade!
1. NO ABILITY TO CHOOSE KEY COMMANDS - ok SONAR has got key commands... BUT THEY ARE RESTRICTED! - SONAR tells you which keys you CAN use... you CANNOT choose!!
Now for example, I have a multimedia qwerty board - Nice!... and I LIKE to assign the STOP/PLAY/FWD/REW commands in the s/w host sequencer to those dedicated buttons... But I can't do it with SONAR!!
I like to assign certain functions to key commands - sadly not ALL menu commands appear to be listed either -
MY SOLUTION: Give ALL menu item dialog panels a LEARN BUTTON - so, lets say you open one of the midi dialog menu items via the text menu's - the box/panel opens - what a joy it'd be IF that same panel ALSO had a 'LEARN QWERTY KEY' button - and I was NOT restricted to choose from a limited selection of CTRL+ key sequences - I SHOULD be able to choose a simple key command if I like - for example I would want to ASSIGN LEFT/RIGHT Loop-Point set to my L & R keys - so, the cursor is at position 9.01 - I hit the 'L' key and the left locator sets to that position - etc etc - this is the sort of simplicity we've come to expect now from s/w's like NI's synths (controller assign), Fruity & Orion etc also do this as do many other s/w's
anyways - that whole 'Key-Commands' section is too restricted -
This is made FAR WOSE for cross-grading users who might have spent years using key commands with their previous sequencer only to find they CANNOT switch to SONAR and assign those same keys to the tasks they use most frequently - this makes cross-grading a far more painful business learning a whole NEW set of key commands which might be far less intuitive due to the fact SONAR forces you to choose from a limited selection of key-commands and ALL require two bloody hands to perform in most cases due to having to use the blasted CTRL press with ALL key commands.
Or what about studio owners who are required to install & use multiple sequencer to satisfy clients - it's most important to these users to be able to assign the same qwerty keys to commands common to all the sequencers they use.
2. The DRUM MAP - Brilliant addition!! - it had to be added... BUT there is a BIG oversight - this oversight might be simple to fix, but I can't see WHY it's missing! - The problem is this:
There is NO dialog box to fix NOTE LENGTH - this is VERY important when programming drums to trigger samples because MANY users utilise midi note length to control sample trigger length - Where this problem manifests itself worst is when you open a Drum-Map WITH THE DIAMONDS for notes, and start to input notes - but the note length is fixed to 1/4 notes - then you put in some hat notes as 16ths, finaly you close the editor and view the pattern-clip on the arrange-page and see it is LONGER than the ONE-BAR you programmed because the LONg notes extend out beyond the end of the pattern - this results in scrappy pattern which then have to be RE-EDITED painfuly slowly toi adjust the note Length.
Now yes, I KNOW you CAN choose from various note lengths above the drum-map - BUt what is this PHOBIA Cakewalk has against anything smaller than a 32nd or 64th note? - there is NO BUTTON to choose 64th note - and you MAY want your note length to be WAY smaller than a 64th!! - OK so THAT is a problem - why oh why cannot you ADD a NOTE LENGTH box in the drum-map with each drum-map ROW? - OR at the top at least add a button for 64ths or better still a whole NOTE-LENGTH dialog-box that opens where you can input a note length of a 54th, or even smaller if required than a 64th !
3. ARRANGE-PAGE GRID - almost non-existant! - dragging/copying and moving pattern CLIPS around at anything except bar-divisions is a complete NIGHTMARE!! - WHY should I have to waste time zooming in each time i want to drag a clip to a division position of a bar?... PLEASE PLEASE add an option to devide the arrange-page grid into SUB-DIVISIONS - you CANNOT work on pattern-based music editing EFFICIENTLY without this sub-devided grid.... and besides... WHY ARE SUB-DIVISIONS OF BARS MISSING!!.... what's the point of NOT offering sub-divisions?... how hard can that be to implement? - and for those who DON'T want it... FINE!!... they can simply NOT use it or switch it off or use simple bar-length divisions as usual!! - so this EXCLUSION TO ME IS POINTLESS!
ALSO this leads to another question - SONAR has NODE-BASED envelope editing for FX sends, Volume, Pan, Fx & VSTi/DXi parameters - GREAT!!... but how on earth are you supposed to edit In a fast Aux-send 'blip' at exactly beat3 of a bar when NO grid divisions are there to assist you lining up the NODE with bar SUB-position BEAT XX.3.00 OR WHATEVER???? -
C'mon seriously! - I NEED to place nodes EXACTLY at position relative to the bar/clip length, and where is my visual guide?
To me this is ANOTHER reason why it is IMPERATIVE that SONAR add's BAR-DIVISIONS on the arrange-page grid - Node based editing WITHOUT a guide grid is about as pointless as trying to crop images in photoshop to a desired size with no Rullers available - No-one could do it and no-one would use a graphic's programme without a point/pica/cm grid to work to would they??!! - So c'mon cakewalk - get this feature PROPERLY finished and implemented - how hard can it be to add grid divisions and a dialog box to set arrange-page grid divisions and Snap resolution
4. CLIP SIZES - Ok - this to me is VERY important - When working on PATTERN-BLOCK created arranements - since the year dot when old atari sequencers etc ruled the earth, pattern=based music was created with bar-sized blocks (Clips) -
WHY was pattern-based music was created with exactly bar-sized blocks ???? - SIMPLE!! - because when you CUT a bar length to be SMALLER than a bar, these reduced sized blocks are simply and EASILY visible and recognisable as DISTINCTLY different in size to the normal pattern - IF a pattern ends with a sustained note which extends OUTSIDE the right-boundary of a clip, then sure, the CLIP extends.... anyways my problem is this: SONAR ALWAYS sets CLIP-SIZE to show the contents - a CLIP (pattern-block) in SONAR is never a bar-length!!!! - this results ina an arrange-page littered with different-sized blocks/clips - this is both messy visualy and confusing when moving around blocks of clips - when added to an arrange-page with NO bar divisions grid, this makes the whole editing process laborious and tiresome and you have to think about things too much -
So my request is simple - PLEASE PLEASE add an option in PREFERENCES - it would say something like this:
'FORCE ALL PATTERN CLIPS TO FULL BAR-LENGTHS' - ticking this option would force any bar which contains a partial of notes to display as a full bar-length block/clip
5. SNAP FOR DRAGGING CLIP-BOUNDARY SIZES - again this related to the LACK of an arrange-page grid.... when you try to drag a created CLIP to be a full bar-length, the SNAP is very weak... and it's impossible really to see if the clip boundary has been dragged to a proper full bar-length unless you interrupt editing to zoom-in and check because the SNAP isn't 'distinct' enuff.
also where on EARTH is the snap setting for divisions of bars? - If i want to drag a clip boundary so it ends on exactly beat 3 of the bar how on earth do you acheive this with NO bar divisions visible on the grid and NO snap??.... it's impossible almost and certainly impossible unless you zoom RIGHT IN to a very close-up zoom-in - this wastes yet MORE time.
The Arrange-Page needs a grid dialog-box where you can quickly change the divisions and snap divisions DIFFERENTLY... PLEASE add that for god's sake!
Ok there is some moans - but they are 100% realistic moans imo - My problem is this therefore - I WANT to get into SONAR - I'd LIKE the option to choose to switch platform... But every time i go to use SONAR, the glitching audio-dropouts while editing are just TOO annoying!!...
Then on top of that, I find these fundamental missing options are SUCH a hindrance, I just get irritated with the programme and regardless of HOW GOOD the rest of it is, these small oversights are so infuriating that I just give up, because to me it's immaterial how GOOD some of the features are in a sequencer when such basic fundamental issues are glaringly omitted or flawed - What is worst is that these problems are so fundamentaly simple to change - it's nothing like the work required to implement REWIRE for example or ASIO drivers or a whole drum-map
Ok... that's your lot... what do you think?... I can tell you 100% THESE issues go along way to NOT choosing asonar FOR DANCE music which is pattern-based. It seems to me that SONAR is aimed more (still) at users who record audio and mostly use midi to complement a real audio based production... acoustic and other types of rock etc would be ideal... But for music created using MOSTLY pattern-blocks...... ??
There is a few other things I'd like to see, but that's not complaints or criticism's, just rather things (a few) which could be added to make SONAR trash the competition totaly - such as... using REWIRE, SONAR will read the drum-names in RE-DRUM and they appear in the piano-roll when you assign a midi track to RE-DRUM and open the PIANO-ROLL editor to create a pattern.... BUT, what would be superb would be a button to simply switch the piano-roll to a drum-map while RETAINING those drum-names - but that doesn't seem to be possible - perhaps I missed it - But it seems a great shame that SONAR can query REASON's Re-DRUM and grab the drum-names of the actual loaded samples, but then you cannot do that with a drum-map which is designed for creating/editing drums in the first place - Did I miss a way to do this?... I hope so - If not, can THIS be implemented?? - that would be a good kudos over the competition & it would RULE!!
So - what do you think?... can this edit glitching be solved?... it has to basicalY!! - because while it isn't, it makes smaller programmes from smaller indie s/w houses like Orion & Fruity seem superior, or at the least because SONAR is the ONLY sequencer which glitches while editing it makes SONAR seem 'flawed' - NOT a good sign - The other criticisms?... they REALLY need sorting out
If all that gets sorted I'd say SONAR was the best sequencer on the market
Oh yes - one last issue/suggestion - the PATTERN BRUSH - This is yet another KILLER feature - For dance music makers it's a really SUPERB feature - my God!... the HOURS I could save having all my favourite drum hi-hat & percussions pattern and arp-pattern etc for synths available at the click & dragging of the mouse is a feature that SLAYS the competition for dance creation!!
ok.... so er... WHY IS IT SO LABORIOUS TO CREATE/SAVE a pattern?... C'MON GUYS! - seriously - why doesnt the editor in piano-roll or drum-map have a SIMPLE button labelled:
'SAVE SELECTED NOTES BETWEEN LOCATORS AS BRUSH-PATTERN'
Get THAT sorted and this feature will be super-strong - but keep it so that creating a brush-pattern takes 4 or 5 moves and lots of farting about and it weakens the work-flow - that's a suggestion i think would be WELL worth implementing!!
and again - a proper FLEXIBLE Key-Commands section would go along way to helping to solve these tweaks to make SONAR the KILLER dance application sequencer - because after all, I didn't even mention stuff like the groove-clip stuff which already is great & the fact it's video float section is the best!!
Ok... Nuff ranting - BUT PLEASE.... make this sequencer right for dance... it's ALMOST there... almost!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 2/73 19-Apr-03 @ 05:29 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Stvy
Posts: 22
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Hi,
Nice ideas their K. Have to say that I'm still happy with logic on windows... But if sonar can get these king of things going nicely then ...................Hmm
Cheers
Stvy
Nice ideas their K. Have to say that I'm still happy with logic on windows... But if sonar can get these king of things going nicely then ...................Hmm
Cheers
Stvy
Message 3/73 20-Apr-03 @ 05:57 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Mr. Cakewalk,
I agree wholeheartedly with EVERYTHING that k has suggested. The audio glitch thing is a BIG problem in pattern based music. Subdivisions are also absolutely necessary. I would like to see the dr-008 implemented better. I get ghost notes all the time, and the only way to get rid of them is to delete the clip entirely and start over. That's a HUGE problem. I upgraded to XL solely for the dr-008 (but I'm happy with the Timeworks plugins - high quality) and I don't want to get rid of my h/w sampler until the dr-008 is implemented better.
Regarding the dr-008. There is a browse function that lets you go into your hard-drive to select samples. VERY COOL. However, this feature would go from 'very cool' to 'the bomb' in a second if I could listen to the samples from the browse sectoin. An audition button would be great. Wavelab and Sound Forge allow you to do this before you open the sample, so this would be cool. Perhaps that is something for fxpansion to improve. If so, let me know, and I'll email em.
Anyhow - other Sonar users please speak up because clearly Cakewalk is listening. Let your voices be heard.
Thanks for your continued attention Mr. Cakewalk. I'm glad I migrated from Cubase. :-) A couple changes are your TRASH the competition.
I agree wholeheartedly with EVERYTHING that k has suggested. The audio glitch thing is a BIG problem in pattern based music. Subdivisions are also absolutely necessary. I would like to see the dr-008 implemented better. I get ghost notes all the time, and the only way to get rid of them is to delete the clip entirely and start over. That's a HUGE problem. I upgraded to XL solely for the dr-008 (but I'm happy with the Timeworks plugins - high quality) and I don't want to get rid of my h/w sampler until the dr-008 is implemented better.
Regarding the dr-008. There is a browse function that lets you go into your hard-drive to select samples. VERY COOL. However, this feature would go from 'very cool' to 'the bomb' in a second if I could listen to the samples from the browse sectoin. An audition button would be great. Wavelab and Sound Forge allow you to do this before you open the sample, so this would be cool. Perhaps that is something for fxpansion to improve. If so, let me know, and I'll email em.
Anyhow - other Sonar users please speak up because clearly Cakewalk is listening. Let your voices be heard.
Thanks for your continued attention Mr. Cakewalk. I'm glad I migrated from Cubase. :-) A couple changes are your TRASH the competition.
Message 4/73 20-Apr-03 @ 11:32 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Regarding the dr-008. There is a browse function that lets you go into your hard-drive to select samples. VERY COOL. However, this feature would go from 'very cool' to 'the bomb' in a second if I could listen to the samples from the browse sectoin
exactly! - agreed - but mebbe that's best addressed to fxpansion? - hmm - how much have you messed with settings for dr-008 to try to fix it.. I'm just starting, but for it to do it out of the box is a bit odd.
exactly! - agreed - but mebbe that's best addressed to fxpansion? - hmm - how much have you messed with settings for dr-008 to try to fix it.. I'm just starting, but for it to do it out of the box is a bit odd.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 5/73 22-Apr-03 @ 09:53 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
so..... could we get some dialog about this glitching and other thoughts... Obviously some listed issues are not bugs, just requests for feature tweaks which would unify some of the new features a bit
But this glitching thing.... that needs to be addressed before anything else I reckon.
But this glitching thing.... that needs to be addressed before anything else I reckon.
Message 6/73 22-Apr-03 @ 10:17 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Come to find out that the Dr-008 in Sonal XL is not the full version. In order to get the full version, I need to pay another $49. This really pisses me off. I don't remember seeing ANYTHING about a limited version. If I had known that, I wouldn't have upgraded, I would have just bought the DR-008. Maybe I was lazy and didn't read the fine print (which would make it my fault and I can accept that), but I'm STILL not happy.
Anyhow - that probably explains the dr-008 bug...
Anyhow - that probably explains the dr-008 bug...
Message 7/73 23-Apr-03 @ 09:17 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
ok, but assuming the 'cut-down' version included in XL shouldn't glitch, what's the OTHER differences between this 'Sonar-XL-Included' version and the 'upgrade' you can pay for
??
??
Message 8/73 23-Apr-03 @ 05:58 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
yonce n mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
the glitching thing is killing me too !!! I didn't know that it was such a common problem. I dropped my 350 for XL and now I hardly ever use it!! Iv'e become so frustrated with the audio glitches, the dropout on loop thing completely ruins a otherwise excellent program. Thats how I work in, small loops it seems like everytime I try to dig into a project I spend more time cussing and reading through the manual than making tracks!!I also have a strange problem with the aiso/wdm drivers. I am using a delta 44 if I use the wdm drivers i get constant dropouts and terrible latency, so bad in fact I haven't been able to set the latency high enuff to completely eliminate it which of course is unacceptable. If I use the asio drivers the latency is next nothing (8.7ms)it only drops out during looping and then only with several audio tracks, BUT THEN I CAN'T BOUNCE TO TRACKS !!!! meaning I can't use soft synths I can record and playback audio fine but I can't record audio from soft synths or apply effects. I went back to using orion, I have been debating project 5 hopeing that i could use it like orion and then plug it in to sonar for adding audio, but I'm pretty sceptical because of the lack of success I've had with sonar. Ireally want to use sonar I want to be happy with it it has so much potential but the audio dropout while looping is unacceptable for me.
Message 9/73 23-Apr-03 @ 07:28 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I guess the Sonar version of 008 is *nearly* the full version. From what I gather, the $49 dollars gets a few extra things: version 1 updates, unlimited access to several gigabytes worth of kits on an ftp site hosted by fxpansion, .sf2 support and I think that kits automatically load as drum maps in Sonar. Something like that.
I was considering doing it just for the free samples, but it's kind of weak doing it just to get a bug fix.
I was considering doing it just for the free samples, but it's kind of weak doing it just to get a bug fix.
Message 10/73 23-Apr-03 @ 10:23 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I completely agree about that feeling of frustration - I REALLY want SONAR to kick the crap out of logic & SX !!
grrrrrrrrr!
I have NO problems with 99% of the programme - but it's... no.. f8ck that!.. don't get me going again!!!!
today for example I found myself frustrated because I couldn't highlight a track and hit the delete key and delete a track.... ghaggggggrruaaarghh!
but like you say, in the end those smaller issues pale into insignificance... it's academic because while that blasted glitching happens it's pointless...
we work in an industry where clients have come to view glitching programmes as a sign of overstressed or low power computer, both of which is offputting imo to clients, never mind the operator.
my comments here about sonar in no way reflects upon Project_5 btw.
grrrrrrrrr!
I have NO problems with 99% of the programme - but it's... no.. f8ck that!.. don't get me going again!!!!
today for example I found myself frustrated because I couldn't highlight a track and hit the delete key and delete a track.... ghaggggggrruaaarghh!
but like you say, in the end those smaller issues pale into insignificance... it's academic because while that blasted glitching happens it's pointless...
we work in an industry where clients have come to view glitching programmes as a sign of overstressed or low power computer, both of which is offputting imo to clients, never mind the operator.
my comments here about sonar in no way reflects upon Project_5 btw.
Message 11/73 23-Apr-03 @ 10:32 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
"today for example I found myself frustrated because I couldn't highlight a track and hit the delete key and delete a track.... ghaggggggrruaaarghh! "
ok, you're starting to tread into the "deal with it, you're just not used to it" category. just click on the track you want and hit alt-(t)rack-(d)elete.... you'll get used to it before you know it ;)
psy
ok, you're starting to tread into the "deal with it, you're just not used to it" category. just click on the track you want and hit alt-(t)rack-(d)elete.... you'll get used to it before you know it ;)
psy
Message 12/73 24-Apr-03 @ 02:14 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Okay - is there any way to do a global cut? Like, say I want to remove 8 bars of music, and combine the remaining parts. How do you do that?
Message 13/73 24-Apr-03 @ 03:20 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
if you make a selection of whatever length across however many tracks (even skipping tracks if you like), then select Edit - Cut... you get a dialog. At the bottom is the option to 'Delete Hole' and a suboption to shift audio aligned to measures.
psy
psy
Message 14/73 24-Apr-03 @ 09:52 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
"I completely agree about that feeling of frustration - I REALLY want SONAR to kick the crap out of logic & SX !! "
Lets face it, audio software still lags behind other kind of SW both in user friendliness, both in quality. I've been working with 3D stuff (3D MAX, Maya, Lightwave) for a while, and with those apps, you cannot imagine a situation when there are problems with most basic functionality, like this audio glitching in SONAR. It is very frustrating to see, that companies developing audio software still can get away with this, even after so many years (with 1/20 of the number of the features, compared to the afforementioned apps ). Things are going in the right direction, but so far the only REALLY stable audio software I've seen was Ableton Live and Reason.
I'm not saying that audio software in the market today are useless, you can achieve almost everything these days with just a computer, and that's a good thing. Its just ridiculous how much this stuff costs (not referring explicitly to SONAR this time) with the quality you get (users waiting for months for fixes to major problems). I know its still cheaper than going HW, and that actually it is very hard to verify if a piece of code works and will work with all those HW that claims to be supporting an interface (ASIO, WDM, whatever).
I really hope that reliability and quality will become a serious issue soon.
End of rant.
Lets face it, audio software still lags behind other kind of SW both in user friendliness, both in quality. I've been working with 3D stuff (3D MAX, Maya, Lightwave) for a while, and with those apps, you cannot imagine a situation when there are problems with most basic functionality, like this audio glitching in SONAR. It is very frustrating to see, that companies developing audio software still can get away with this, even after so many years (with 1/20 of the number of the features, compared to the afforementioned apps ). Things are going in the right direction, but so far the only REALLY stable audio software I've seen was Ableton Live and Reason.
I'm not saying that audio software in the market today are useless, you can achieve almost everything these days with just a computer, and that's a good thing. Its just ridiculous how much this stuff costs (not referring explicitly to SONAR this time) with the quality you get (users waiting for months for fixes to major problems). I know its still cheaper than going HW, and that actually it is very hard to verify if a piece of code works and will work with all those HW that claims to be supporting an interface (ASIO, WDM, whatever).
I really hope that reliability and quality will become a serious issue soon.
End of rant.
Message 15/73 24-Apr-03 @ 02:08 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Hang on a sec! What's the quality of Sonar's native synths like?
I think one of THE strongest elements to Logic is the ES2. Its an amazing synth. Plus (with a bit of plug-in effects use)the ese synth for pads works wonders.
Plus, what's sonar's effects like?
I'm not bitchin' about Sonar, just interested.
I think one of THE strongest elements to Logic is the ES2. Its an amazing synth. Plus (with a bit of plug-in effects use)the ese synth for pads works wonders.
Plus, what's sonar's effects like?
I'm not bitchin' about Sonar, just interested.
Message 16/73 24-Apr-03 @ 03:50 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I for one am not blown away by Sonars Native synths, Dream station is just alright it is usable for alot of different sounds but in my opinion it isn't anything special. the cyclone is really cool nice for loop remixing and you can drag and drop audio right out of the track view. That dr008 is sweet tons of posibilities with that thing. So I guess I should rephrase that I'm not blown away by dreamstation or cyclone but The dr 008 kicks ass
Message 17/73 24-Apr-03 @ 03:55 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Oh and by the way the delete thing, just right click on the track and select delete track, you can highlight a clip and hit delete but not a track, a little wierd
Message 18/73 24-Apr-03 @ 06:22 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Yeah, I agree with Yonce about Sonar's synths. DreamStation....it's OK. Nothing spectacular. It's good for bread and butter sounds. DR-008 despite this looping problem some of us have had, is a real nice piece of software in my opinion. Really easy to use, yet extremely versatile. I've never worked with Battery so I can't compare but of all the other drum samplers I've used this one takes the cake. I've just started digging into Cyclone but it seems like it has promise. It also comes with a lite version of the Tassman modular thingy, I haven't really played around with it that much though. Then there is the Edriol VSC for GM sounds and a limited version of Live Synth which plays soundfonts.
FX-wise. The native cakewalk are alright. Some of the Automatable DSP effects are pretty sweet. It's got that Revalver amp simulator which is cool. The Timeworks EQ and compressor that come with XL are the bomb. They sound really good. It's definitely worth getting the XL version for those extra plugs.
FX-wise. The native cakewalk are alright. Some of the Automatable DSP effects are pretty sweet. It's got that Revalver amp simulator which is cool. The Timeworks EQ and compressor that come with XL are the bomb. They sound really good. It's definitely worth getting the XL version for those extra plugs.
Message 19/73 24-Apr-03 @ 07:58 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Tassman ?? Is it on the cd ? I was really dissapointed when I found out there was no tassman with 2.0. I had a cracked version of 1.0 so I didn't actually upgrade so I couldn't keep the synths that came with 1.0. by the way I bought the full version because the audio kept dropping out on the cracked version !!!! and to my suprise it drops out on the legit version. There are other reasons I paid up and got the real version, I could only lie to myself so long (I'm just trying it out not stealing), tech support (which I hadn't taken advantage of) and just little computer bugs in and out of sonar that are hard to fix because you don't know if it is a real problem or if it's just a problem caused by using cracked software. sorry to go off topic but just a word of warning cracked sofware will screw up you pc!!!!!!! I tried out a cracked version of NI FM7 and it took me about 3 days to clean up the mess it made not worth it if you ask me. and yes the compresser and the eq are the shiznit
Message 20/73 24-Apr-03 @ 09:15 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Yeah, It was on the Sonar2 XL CD that I got.
Message 21/73 24-Apr-03 @ 10:27 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
hey dont get me wrong, like I said it's 99% there, take way the glitch and I only have a few issues.
Message 22/73 24-Apr-03 @ 11:18 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I'm pretty disappointed with the DR-008 thing. It's a WAY cool product, perfect for what I want, but the ghost note REALLY pisses me off. The glitch thing is obnoxious, but I don't find it to be that bad. The ghost note is is hearing something that isn't there, and THAT'S the biggest problem I have.
The Timeworks plugs are DEFINITELY good. VERY good.
The Timeworks plugs are DEFINITELY good. VERY good.
Message 23/73 25-Apr-03 @ 03:26 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Tassman doesn't ship with SONAR 2. If you have it on your system, you must have had SONAR 1 installed first.
Speaking of Tassman. Applied Acoustics Systems are giving away free upgrades to Tassman 3.0 to all owners of SONAR 1.0 XL through June. You'll need your SONAR 1.0 serial to get the free download.
Speaking of Tassman. Applied Acoustics Systems are giving away free upgrades to Tassman 3.0 to all owners of SONAR 1.0 XL through June. You'll need your SONAR 1.0 serial to get the free download.
Message 24/73 25-Apr-03 @ 06:38 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
That's really weird. I never owned Sonar 1, nor had a demo or anything on my computer. But I definitely have Tassman. It showed up when I installed Sonar 2. I really can't think of any other way. I never used programs that supported DXi before Sonar, so I wouldn't have had it on my computer. And it's definitely not a demo, there's no audio dropouts and I can save settings.
I did the competitive upgrade if that makes a difference?
I did the competitive upgrade if that makes a difference?
Message 25/73 25-Apr-03 @ 07:14 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
hehehe, I think I figured it out. I remembered that I installed the free version of Plasma that came in an issue of Computer Music. I only had it on my computer for a few hours before I uninstalled it, but I assume that I didn't delete all the folders it created. Which explains why I have Tassman Lite Edition and why Tassman and Revalver showed up out of the blue when I installed Sonar. Sorry to get anyone's hopes up.
Message 26/73 25-Apr-03 @ 08:21 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
yonce n mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Revalver is included with sonar 2.0 I havn't played with that yet I suppose I should give it a try.
Message 27/73 27-Apr-03 @ 11:13 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well I found an answer to one irritation I had - i couldnt see a way to stop 'scrool song' to stop the edit window scrolling while editing a zoomed-in section of a pattern - on the sonar NG the answer was revealed!
the 'scroll-lock' key on the qwerty board apparently!
the 'scroll-lock' key on the qwerty board apparently!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 28/73 28-Apr-03 @ 12:10 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
thanks for that, k.
that has annoyed me as well for the past 2 years.
now if i can figure out why when i copy and paste sections in loop mode, the notes won't trigger in the pasted section.
that has annoyed me as well for the past 2 years.
now if i can figure out why when i copy and paste sections in loop mode, the notes won't trigger in the pasted section.
Message 29/73 28-Apr-03 @ 01:09 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
that could be 'the glitch' - I've noticed that often pasted notes OR newly inputted notes simply do not trigger until you stop and press start again!
Message 31/73 13-May-03 @ 10:22 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
K, thanks for this thread. I have recently been given the opportunity to do some editing for IBM Interactive (a BIG opportunity for me to supplement booming when it's slow by getting my foot in IBM's door as a freelancer). I may need to export the audio as broadcast WAV so I was looking into Sonar since I currently use Cubase VST but, here's the catch, it will require editting loops of audio. It looks like I'll be upgrading to SX instead. It's too bad because, overall, I'm not particularly happy with Steinberg's apparently dodgy support and developement (the forums over there are a minefield) but it looks like I have no other real option. I only hope I don't get f*!#@ed by Steiny.
I've been mulling this over for about a year now and I'm beginning to think that there is a good reason for PT being on top. I haven't minded being on the fringe regarding what everybody else uses (PT) but there does perhaps come a time...
I've been mulling this over for about a year now and I'm beginning to think that there is a good reason for PT being on top. I haven't minded being on the fringe regarding what everybody else uses (PT) but there does perhaps come a time...
Message 32/73 14-May-03 @ 01:02 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
wait wait wait... before you give up on Sonar due to k's woes... tell me what you need to do and I'll tell you if Sonar can handle it gracefully.
I have wonderful experiences with Sonar all the time, and it's great for many things. I also use Pro-Tools a lot at work, so I can compare and contrast.
I think sonar stands up very favorably to Pro-Tools, have said it before and will say it again. So what will your project entail, mick?
psy
I have wonderful experiences with Sonar all the time, and it's great for many things. I also use Pro-Tools a lot at work, so I can compare and contrast.
I think sonar stands up very favorably to Pro-Tools, have said it before and will say it again. So what will your project entail, mick?
psy
Message 33/73 14-May-03 @ 04:55 AM Edit: 14-May-03 | 04:59 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I've yet to get the specifics. It sounds like I'll be given an edited interview on video tape and several CDs of WAV files containing the unedited audio of the entire interview. as far as I can tell from the initial conversation I will need to find on the CD the audio that matches picture. I'll have to import the audio into an editor (Cubase or Sonar), cut out the parts that match picture then paste those parts into a timeline that corrosponds to the burned in timecode on the video tape. Then, and this is key, I need to export the audio as a broadcast WAV. VST doesn't do broadcast WAV but SX, Sonar and PT do.
It sounds like Sonar can't handle this kind of frame accurate editing unless I misunderstand K.
It sounds like Sonar can't handle this kind of frame accurate editing unless I misunderstand K.
Message 34/73 14-May-03 @ 05:55 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
you misunderstand K. Sonar is sample accuarate with audio, and would perform your task with ease. Seriously, I know I sing the praises of Sonar a bit much to be credible to some folk, but I only do it because I don't think it gets the respect it deserves.
Honestly, as a professional DAW user, I would CHOOSE Sonar for the project you mention. You should not worry about sample-accuracy issues.
Honestly, as a professional DAW user, I would CHOOSE Sonar for the project you mention. You should not worry about sample-accuracy issues.
Message 35/73 14-May-03 @ 12:00 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
oh yeah - SONAR could do that easily - it doesnt require looping really
I dont have ANY problems with SONAR perse I just cannot work on dance music or drum composition etc while this bloody glitch will drive me mad over a day
my other gripes are also valid I feel, but before the glicth is sorted they are academic
for what YOU want to do with the video/audio, the glitching isnt going to be an issue really
I dont have ANY problems with SONAR perse I just cannot work on dance music or drum composition etc while this bloody glitch will drive me mad over a day
my other gripes are also valid I feel, but before the glicth is sorted they are academic
for what YOU want to do with the video/audio, the glitching isnt going to be an issue really
Message 36/73 14-May-03 @ 11:09 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yeah Mick, these issues won't bother you much at all. Sonar is great. Just need to fix the glitch thing...
Message 37/73 15-May-03 @ 07:30 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Excellent. Thanks guys. Truth be told I have been looking for a reason to do a competitive upgrade to Sonar for about a year. I wish I would have taken the opportunity when they were offering it for $99.00 but, oh well. Next question, from a music perspective: is XL worth the extra money?
I'm excited, kind of giddy actually, I've heard a lot of good things about Sonar. The fact that it has always been native to the PC sounds very cool and the integration with PT is a big bonus.
What kind of a learning curve should I expect migrating from Cubase to Sonar. I worked with PT, dialog editing and FX, a few years back. I miss drawing envelopes; that was my really big gripe with Cubase. That and the fact that they seemed to be trying to emulate a hardware environment, from GUI standpoint, instead of making it look like what it is, a computer program. Sonar seems more closely related to PT's GUI.
Thanks again, you guys have been a great resource for me whenever gear decisions reared their ugly head. K, I've said it before but it is always worth repeating, DT is one of the best audio related resources on the web, dance or otherwise. I hope it continues for a very loooong time. When we're old and gray we're all going to need something to do when we're not chasing the opposite (or same, for those so inclined) sex 'round the home with our walkers and O2 bottles. ;)
Seriously, I can't say enough good things about everyone who has been involved with this site over the last four or five years, even those whose opinions sometimes infuriate me.
Cheers,
Mick
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Davies,%20Mick
I'm excited, kind of giddy actually, I've heard a lot of good things about Sonar. The fact that it has always been native to the PC sounds very cool and the integration with PT is a big bonus.
What kind of a learning curve should I expect migrating from Cubase to Sonar. I worked with PT, dialog editing and FX, a few years back. I miss drawing envelopes; that was my really big gripe with Cubase. That and the fact that they seemed to be trying to emulate a hardware environment, from GUI standpoint, instead of making it look like what it is, a computer program. Sonar seems more closely related to PT's GUI.
Thanks again, you guys have been a great resource for me whenever gear decisions reared their ugly head. K, I've said it before but it is always worth repeating, DT is one of the best audio related resources on the web, dance or otherwise. I hope it continues for a very loooong time. When we're old and gray we're all going to need something to do when we're not chasing the opposite (or same, for those so inclined) sex 'round the home with our walkers and O2 bottles. ;)
Seriously, I can't say enough good things about everyone who has been involved with this site over the last four or five years, even those whose opinions sometimes infuriate me.
Cheers,
Mick
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Davies,%20Mick
Message 38/73 15-May-03 @ 08:26 AM Edit: 15-May-03 | 08:30 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well, as I've said before, I actually prefer editing in Sonar... and I'm pretty quick in Pro-Tools, so I know which one *I* think it's possible to move faster in. And that one is Sonar. I flipped when I upgraded from Pro Audio 9 because I was amazed at how much they ripped off Pro-Tools' interface and even bettered it! Oh, the crossfades! So much better in sonar...
Never really used Cubase a whole lot, but from what I've seen, the interface is much simpler in Cake's implementation... fewer screens, fewer buttons. As long as you find Cakewalk's analogies for all your Cubasism's I think you'll be ok... they're all there.
Especially if you mainly stick to audio... I think Sonar does audio so simply and gracefully, I can't imagine wanting more in a native system. You can use very flexible "rubber-band" envelope automation, very easy and fast fades and auto-crossfades between clips, or simply arm a fader for touch automation and ride a vocal. Or set up a MIDI fader to do it. Really, any limitation you may find can be worked around rather easily, and it's getting hard to find those limitations.
As far as if XL is worth it... probably not. Especially if you already have a nice set of softsynths and plugins. Personally, I never use the XL stuff and opt for Waves and Native Instrument plugs, but that's just me. But I've heard this sentiment echoed elsewhere, too.
Good luck, hope it all works out for you.
psy
Never really used Cubase a whole lot, but from what I've seen, the interface is much simpler in Cake's implementation... fewer screens, fewer buttons. As long as you find Cakewalk's analogies for all your Cubasism's I think you'll be ok... they're all there.
Especially if you mainly stick to audio... I think Sonar does audio so simply and gracefully, I can't imagine wanting more in a native system. You can use very flexible "rubber-band" envelope automation, very easy and fast fades and auto-crossfades between clips, or simply arm a fader for touch automation and ride a vocal. Or set up a MIDI fader to do it. Really, any limitation you may find can be worked around rather easily, and it's getting hard to find those limitations.
As far as if XL is worth it... probably not. Especially if you already have a nice set of softsynths and plugins. Personally, I never use the XL stuff and opt for Waves and Native Instrument plugs, but that's just me. But I've heard this sentiment echoed elsewhere, too.
Good luck, hope it all works out for you.
psy
Message 39/73 15-May-03 @ 12:20 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well they all have node-based editing now so that can't be held up as a 'SONAR' thing - the XL? - welllllllll.... honestly?.. I'm not sure
I've said to Cakle before over and over - they need TWO versions of XL - one for dance and one for rock - The old SONAR-XL package contained loads of groove-clips - but they were all rock based. You get the dr008, but that has a bug
Cake has two issues as I see it
1. to sort out the bugs which alienate dance-makers (but having said that, when i work on acoustic or rock music projects, I ALWAYS loop a small section to work on the beat, fills etc)
2. they need to rethink their marketting/packages to entice MORE dance makers as Cake's traditional user-base to my mind is more rock people.
for me, a DANCETECH SONAR-XL package would have
1. glitch free loop editing
2. clips with fixed-bar lengths
3. clip-border dragging which snapped smartly to EXACT divisions of the bar as set in the dialog for the arrange-page
4. a proper arrange-page grid with options to set the grid to DIVISIONS of the beat
5. dr008 fixed, cos it IS an awesome drumbox for dance - probably better than battery for dance as it includes loads of VA drum modules as well as samples for endless variety
6. easy SAVING of BRUSH PATTERNS (it's too complicated right now to SAVE your own patterns and that scuppers a superb feature)
7. Included Brush-pattern content specialy for DANCE (NO rock patterns at all)
8. If sample (groove-clip) content is included, then they should be all dance loops & arps etc
9. VSTi wrapper INCLUDED. (is it now? I forget)
----------------
SONAR would then kick some almighty ass!!!
ALSO - Perhaps a special-price option to add PROJECT5 as a bundle-deal, and NOT have dr008 and the dreamstation in SONAR - so like a 'SONAR-XL-PROJECT5' bundle, where SONAR in that package comes with the extra FX (superb) but not the instruments.
I've said to Cakle before over and over - they need TWO versions of XL - one for dance and one for rock - The old SONAR-XL package contained loads of groove-clips - but they were all rock based. You get the dr008, but that has a bug
Cake has two issues as I see it
1. to sort out the bugs which alienate dance-makers (but having said that, when i work on acoustic or rock music projects, I ALWAYS loop a small section to work on the beat, fills etc)
2. they need to rethink their marketting/packages to entice MORE dance makers as Cake's traditional user-base to my mind is more rock people.
for me, a DANCETECH SONAR-XL package would have
1. glitch free loop editing
2. clips with fixed-bar lengths
3. clip-border dragging which snapped smartly to EXACT divisions of the bar as set in the dialog for the arrange-page
4. a proper arrange-page grid with options to set the grid to DIVISIONS of the beat
5. dr008 fixed, cos it IS an awesome drumbox for dance - probably better than battery for dance as it includes loads of VA drum modules as well as samples for endless variety
6. easy SAVING of BRUSH PATTERNS (it's too complicated right now to SAVE your own patterns and that scuppers a superb feature)
7. Included Brush-pattern content specialy for DANCE (NO rock patterns at all)
8. If sample (groove-clip) content is included, then they should be all dance loops & arps etc
9. VSTi wrapper INCLUDED. (is it now? I forget)
----------------
SONAR would then kick some almighty ass!!!
ALSO - Perhaps a special-price option to add PROJECT5 as a bundle-deal, and NOT have dr008 and the dreamstation in SONAR - so like a 'SONAR-XL-PROJECT5' bundle, where SONAR in that package comes with the extra FX (superb) but not the instruments.
Message 40/73 15-May-03 @ 05:59 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yeah, if you already have a nice set of mastering plugs, XL won't really do a whole lot more for you.
But, you did say that you were thinking of doing the competitive upgrade. That's how I got Sonar and I went for XL, just because it was only like $30 more in the competitive upgrade deal.
That timeworks eq is really nice and DR-008 seems like it could be the bomb, but that bug k mentioned seriously sucks.
But, you did say that you were thinking of doing the competitive upgrade. That's how I got Sonar and I went for XL, just because it was only like $30 more in the competitive upgrade deal.
That timeworks eq is really nice and DR-008 seems like it could be the bomb, but that bug k mentioned seriously sucks.
Message 41/73 16-May-03 @ 01:08 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Okay - I went over to the fxpansion message board and floated a question. Angus_fx (I understand he's the guy behind fxpansion) responded and suggested lowering my MIDI buffer to 50 or 100, rather than the default 500. I did this and seem to have lost the ghost note. My work schedule has prevented me from really hammering this fix, so if anyone has the time or inclination, try it out.
Regarding XL and the "is it worth it question". That depends. I upgraded from the standard version for $99. If I can get the DR-008 working well, I'd say hell yeah. The Timeworks plugs are very high quality, and if you don't want to spend the money on Waves stuff, then your $99 is well spent. I too would like to see some sort of wrapper standard in Sonar - seems like a nobrainer as there are SOOOO many more VST plugs than DXI, but considering Cakewalk has a wrapper for sale, I doubt that would happen.
Angus also suggested getting a commercial wrapper, claiming that dxi's are all "wrapped" anyways. A 3rd party wrapper would be better than the one supplied in the DR-008. I'm really anxious to try the DR-008 with the adjusted midi buffer - if it solves that problem, I'm ready to rock and roll. I don't mind the audio glitch as much as the ghost noting, but that's just me...
Regarding XL and the "is it worth it question". That depends. I upgraded from the standard version for $99. If I can get the DR-008 working well, I'd say hell yeah. The Timeworks plugs are very high quality, and if you don't want to spend the money on Waves stuff, then your $99 is well spent. I too would like to see some sort of wrapper standard in Sonar - seems like a nobrainer as there are SOOOO many more VST plugs than DXI, but considering Cakewalk has a wrapper for sale, I doubt that would happen.
Angus also suggested getting a commercial wrapper, claiming that dxi's are all "wrapped" anyways. A 3rd party wrapper would be better than the one supplied in the DR-008. I'm really anxious to try the DR-008 with the adjusted midi buffer - if it solves that problem, I'm ready to rock and roll. I don't mind the audio glitch as much as the ghost noting, but that's just me...
Message 42/73 16-May-03 @ 01:49 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
the timeworks compressor and eq are really nice they both sound great. I think it's worth it just for them, the dr008 is nice too except for the ghost note thing but it only affects looping not the final full song so it is still usefull I'd say it's worth it.
Message 43/73 16-May-03 @ 05:58 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Work Schedule? On the fxpansion forum you said it was because you were watching me on Dawson's Creek!
Message 44/73 16-May-03 @ 07:04 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
"fuck you and your Dawson's crack!"
Message 46/73 16-May-03 @ 11:09 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
WTF!!! - I went to try the midi buffer suggestion and now my dr008 waont open - I get an error messaage:
Failed to insert DXi - The DXi may not be properly installed!!
eh?... but I didn't touch anything since last using it... or did I?.... um... yes, i added direct-x 9
Failed to insert DXi - The DXi may not be properly installed!!
eh?... but I didn't touch anything since last using it... or did I?.... um... yes, i added direct-x 9
Message 47/73 16-May-03 @ 11:19 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I tried it briefly and didn't have any problems. I don't know which dx I'm using though...
And yes, I got sucked into Dawson's Creek in year 2, but have missed most of the last 2 years. Kinda got sick of the Joey/Dawson saga. Anyhow, I wanted to see how things ended up.
Back to some music, hopefully.
And yes, I got sucked into Dawson's Creek in year 2, but have missed most of the last 2 years. Kinda got sick of the Joey/Dawson saga. Anyhow, I wanted to see how things ended up.
Back to some music, hopefully.
Message 48/73 16-May-03 @ 11:23 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well that is well odd - dr008 has totaly dissapeared from my computer!
???
wtf?
???
wtf?
Message 49/73 17-May-03 @ 12:32 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Can't explain. Working BEAUTIFULLY for me right now.
Message 50/73 19-May-03 @ 06:17 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
spectre_one
Posts: 4
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Hey k - I was reading about some problems with DirectX 9 and Sonar. I think that there might be a patch on the cakewalk website.
Message 51/73 19-May-03 @ 09:49 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
well , yes, i saw that a while back - it specifies that if Cakewalk SONAR etc is already installed it's no worries, and that only if the product is NOT installed do you need that
what i've got here is DR008 has TOTALY dissapeared from the PC
?? - weird!
what i've got here is DR008 has TOTALY dissapeared from the PC
?? - weird!
Message 52/73 23-May-03 @ 12:54 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
btw - I forgot wether the VSTi wrapper was included in SONAR 2.2 - I been busy. had a look again and yes it IS included! - and works great btw
so now really you can think of SONAR as exactly like all the other sequencers where VSTi & VST-FX are concerned.
(and of course it has ASIO capability now too, although the WDM driver handling is so good I don't need it with XP.
so now really you can think of SONAR as exactly like all the other sequencers where VSTi & VST-FX are concerned.
(and of course it has ASIO capability now too, although the WDM driver handling is so good I don't need it with XP.
Message 53/73 23-May-03 @ 03:19 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
K,
The VSTi wrapper is not included in SONAR 2.2. When you installed Project5, the wrapper was installed.
Cheers,
Carl
The VSTi wrapper is not included in SONAR 2.2. When you installed Project5, the wrapper was installed.
Cheers,
Carl
Message 54/73 24-May-03 @ 06:07 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Thanks again everyone. I got the specs for this job and it looks like I can use CoolEdit 96 (my current wave editor), because its really simple. I have to cut up a few hour long waves to match a slide shoe presentaion. No time code. I get a script and a VHS then match my edits to the VHS.
I will, however, be trying Sonar when I'm flush again.
I will, however, be trying Sonar when I'm flush again.
Message 55/73 30-May-03 @ 07:07 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
There was a lot made of the audio glitch thing when Logic users were looking to switch and Ron Kruper never addressed it and neither does Mr Cakewalk on this forum.
Could it be that this is so embedded in the old code ported from Pro Audio that they cannot fix it unless they rewrite from scratch?
Regards
M
Could it be that this is so embedded in the old code ported from Pro Audio that they cannot fix it unless they rewrite from scratch?
Regards
M
Message 56/73 04-Jun-03 @ 04:27 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Mick, dunno how many times i say this, but I hate to admit that I own SONAR2 and firmly believe in its abilities, YET I consistently drift to using cooledit, because it gets the job done so simply.
Message 57/73 06-Jun-03 @ 12:11 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Why are you comparing Cooledit to Sonar? They are 2 differenct programs to my knowledge. Sonar is a sequencer with some audio editing facilities, while Cooledit is an audio editor. Right?
Message 58/73 06-Jun-03 @ 10:43 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
"Sonar is a sequencer with some audio editing facilities"
it's a bit more than that i'd say for audio!!
it's a bit more than that i'd say for audio!!
Message 59/73 06-Jun-03 @ 10:44 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Okay - I'll grant you that, but it's NOT a full featured audio mangler like CoodEdit.
Message 60/73 17-Jun-03 @ 02:48 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
for multitrack audio arranging, cooledit is breezy.
Message 61/73 21-Jun-03 @ 04:45 PM - need to make a fast decsion
Need to make a fast decision..............
have jst ordered a new system from carillon and after thinking about it i went with sonar instead of cubase etc, thing is, i chose it on the strength of its looping features cos i make mainly pattern based electronic stuf, but straight after i put the deposit down i read this thread about the audio drop out and glitch problems,!!! looping stuff is my main thing and i couldnt cope with constant ups , how bad is this problem, especially for someone like me who would use loops all the time. Also ive ordered project 5 with sonar xl, if i decide to dump xl in favour of say sx, would p5 work with it and would i be better off getting somthing like acid pro to create the loops to use in p5 and sx as ive heard sx is great but not fantastic at loops and pattern stuff and you cant record audio into p5?!........... hmmmmmmmmmmm ill be weell off pissed if i have to buy a load of more expensive software just because sonar doesnt do what its supposed to, but id rather fork out than live with shity sound, any ideas? all suggestions would be gratefull recieved as i really need to let carrilon know what i want asap. cheers
Mik
have jst ordered a new system from carillon and after thinking about it i went with sonar instead of cubase etc, thing is, i chose it on the strength of its looping features cos i make mainly pattern based electronic stuf, but straight after i put the deposit down i read this thread about the audio drop out and glitch problems,!!! looping stuff is my main thing and i couldnt cope with constant ups , how bad is this problem, especially for someone like me who would use loops all the time. Also ive ordered project 5 with sonar xl, if i decide to dump xl in favour of say sx, would p5 work with it and would i be better off getting somthing like acid pro to create the loops to use in p5 and sx as ive heard sx is great but not fantastic at loops and pattern stuff and you cant record audio into p5?!........... hmmmmmmmmmmm ill be weell off pissed if i have to buy a load of more expensive software just because sonar doesnt do what its supposed to, but id rather fork out than live with shity sound, any ideas? all suggestions would be gratefull recieved as i really need to let carrilon know what i want asap. cheers
Mik
Message 62/73 24-Jun-03 @ 06:02 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
shit didnt see this - well project5
Message 63/73 24-Jun-03 @ 06:05 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
.... doesnt glitch when looping so you could sync up project5 and work inside that, then dump/export stuff over etc... I have a feeling based on recent dialog that SONAR will fix that glitch... but when?... I dunno.
I personaly cannot live with it, when they fix the glitch and get a proper Arrange-page grid, and fix the music CLIP size thing so they actualy snap to proper bar lengths (or divisions of bars, such as 1/4 length etc)... THEN I'll entertain a crossgrade for my day to day work
I personaly cannot live with it, when they fix the glitch and get a proper Arrange-page grid, and fix the music CLIP size thing so they actualy snap to proper bar lengths (or divisions of bars, such as 1/4 length etc)... THEN I'll entertain a crossgrade for my day to day work
Message 64/73 25-Jun-03 @ 07:56 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
thanx forn the reply K, glad to know there is no glitchies in P5, im gonna go with sx and P5 and meby ableton live for messing with loops and see how i go....
Message 65/73 26-Jun-03 @ 01:48 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I have been very happy with p5 so far
Message 66/73 01-Jul-03 @ 07:28 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
I get occassional dropouts but nothing to speak of really. My CPU meter was reading about 75% on a track yesterday and it was only dropping out if tapping my foot too much was shaking my CPU. That's it though.
Message 67/73 02-Jul-03 @ 11:18 AM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
"if tapping my foot too much was shaking my CPU"
lol
hi sitar nice to see you around again.
lol
hi sitar nice to see you around again.
Message 68/73 02-Jul-03 @ 06:44 PM Edit: 02-Jul-03 | 06:48 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
hehe beds. thought technology got us away from the downsides of vinyl and then my foot apparently makes the hd reader.
(reminds self to move cpu away from foot)
Sonar is much more than an audio editor like K said. Can you integrate softsynths and the like with all the midi envelope control for example into cooledit?
(reminds self to move cpu away from foot)
Sonar is much more than an audio editor like K said. Can you integrate softsynths and the like with all the midi envelope control for example into cooledit?
Message 69/73 02-Jul-03 @ 07:45 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
This is the problem with taking a PC on stage... I've heard more than a few HD's skip during a show.
e
e
Message 71/73 02-Jul-03 @ 11:07 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
hehehe i'm picturing my cpu chassis in a giant Neumann shockmount on a huge mic stand. And it's funny.
In my head, at least.
In my head, at least.
Message 72/73 02-Jul-03 @ 11:16 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
Just don't tap your foot and you're golden
Message 73/73 03-Jul-03 @ 05:56 PM - RE: SONAR - so close but......
You're not golden if there are subs anyway where near the stage... Not that this has anything to do with Sonar at this point...
Hangs head, shuffles out the door.
e
Hangs head, shuffles out the door.
e
Viewing all 73 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 8
There are 73 total messages for this topic
Reply to Thread
You need to register/login to use the forum.
Click here to Signup or Login !
[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]
Back to Forum
