Forums - Samplers & sampling
Subject: can't decide...
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Original Message 1/56 22-Sep-02 @ 06:24 AM - can't decide...
Message 2/56 22-Sep-02 @ 12:39 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 4/56 22-Sep-02 @ 05:47 PM - RE: can't decide...
you could start with/use a s/w like Orion (normal, pro or platignum) or Reason,... both come with synths & a sampler and sampling drumbox everything you need to get going.
Orions allows adding more VSTi's... reason does not. But then reason will integrate into most of the major s/w sequencer like logic, sonar & vst/sx
mebbe start with a s/w like reason or orion and see how you like it... if you go further and add a decent budget level proper soundcard with decent asio or wdm drivers, then you can play those s/w synths & sampler live from a midi master keyboard.
Message 5/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:14 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 6/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:34 PM - RE: can't decide...
one sampler, one synth, a sequencer. can be soft or hard...doesnt matter
soft is gonna be cheaper and more convenient if you have a good machine...hard is more hands on and intuitive for the most part
Message 7/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 8/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:44 PM - RE: can't decide...
people, i dunno, but what's a good box to get that can do lots from the word go, but could work with a better system (hard/soft sequencer + extras) at a later date?
Message 9/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:45 PM - RE: can't decide...
That midi data can trigger ANY midi device making it play the midi note data...
midi receiving/sound-generating devices can be hardware (outside the pc/mac in their own case & with their own power supply).... or midi receiving/sound-generating devices can be in s/w playing their sounds out from the soundcard...
midi receiving/sound-generating devices can be samplers, drumboxes, grooveboxes, synths, etc etc... some of them also can send out their own midi data which might for example represent the movement of a synth pararmeter which changes the sound in realtime....
ok.... so you therefore create songs by writing/recording notes as midi data which is used to trigger sound-making devices in hardware or s/w form...
so you need a sequencer - a sequencer records, stores and playsback the midi data.... then you need the sound-making devices....
now we arive at my previous post - the descision wether to get hardware gear, actual units... like say a sampler and a synth and a sequencer... then a mixer to blend all those sounds... some basic fx to add delays & reverb - and that's IT!!
a setup like that is VERY effective and you can play live with it!
or do it all in software - use a software sequencer and software sound-generating devices/instruments -
and there you can use reason, Orion, Fruity Loops etc (self contained all-in-one packages which do it all & in some cases can expand)
or you get an 'open' sequencer and buy software synths/sampler/drums etc and use that to make a all-in-one system. This is the more expensive sequencers with greater facilities (in some cases), they all also have audio tracks which can be EVERY effective for dance of course.... But they dont come with much more than a basic freebie amount of sound-making software synths or drums etc.... so if you went for a main sequencer in s/w, like cakewalk, steinberg, emagic etc, then you'll also need s/w instruments to use with it....
now in the case of s/w instruments... IF you want to play your master keyboard, and actualy PLAY those s/q synths in realtime (so that when you hit the keys it sounds via your pc soundcard), then you need a low-latency card
Lowlatency cards process the audio fast enuff so s/w instruments can be played in realtime (with a fast enuff PC/mac that is)
ok so bare in mind that special soundcard needs to be added to the price (stating at around 160-70 for a starter card of any quality (purpose designed)
with the hardware setup... synth, sampler, mixer, fx units etc you dont need that special soundcard - you can of course still record things into your pc and mess with the audio in the pc and then reload it into the sampler if you go for an all hardware system.
there is a 3rd scenario
a pc/mac running a software sequencer... but with all outboard harware sound generating devices,,,,, so that'd be the middle hybrid between the two of 'all hardware' & 'all software'
make any sense?
Message 10/56 22-Sep-02 @ 09:58 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 11/56 23-Sep-02 @ 02:03 AM - RE: can't decide...
If you're talking about an all-in-one box (though admittedly not geared towards trance/dnb/house electronica etc.) it's got THE BEST PRESETS on the market for everything else. If you're doing hiphop, it's perfect. But few people stretch the limits of that machine... it has excellent programmability.
Just wanted to throw that one out there. I dont' see many people recommending it, but it's a proven workhorse. But I'd still recommend software (you'll find you learn a lot more about production in general with s/w). But if you do decide to go h/w, you owe it to yourself to sit down for an hour with a Triton and see if its sound is for you. Good luck....
psylichon
Message 12/56 23-Sep-02 @ 02:19 AM - RE: can't decide...
Message 13/56 23-Sep-02 @ 05:50 AM - RE: can't decide...
When I first started off, I had a cheesy Yamaha PSR-550M keyboard, that had instrument samples and a built-in sequencer. It was very convenient to write basic electronic music on. After a year or so, I wanted more power. That's when I started buying hardware synthesizers, samplers, etc, and using Cakewalk on my PC.
Translation: I think you'd be best off keeping it simple at first (one box or program at a time), getting your feet wet, then expanding when you need better sounds and power, and you're sure you want to go further with electronic music.
You specifically said you wanted to get into sampling, but you did not mention whether you have any experience with playing the piano or writing music.
If you have no such experience, my advise would be to go the route I did, and get a keyboard with built-in sounds and sequencer to start off. One option is the Roland XP-50 or XP-60 keyboards, which have built-in sounds and a sequencer. Then you could add a used Akai S-2000 or S-3000 to get into sampling.
The alternative, *if* you have a fast PC, is to connect a USB keyboard to your PC and use a software program like Rebirth or Reason. The advantage here is that you will have pro-caliber sounds for less money. But, there is a learning curve and the ever-present possibility of running into PC audio problems, which are a pain in the arse to solve. It helps to have a computer dedicated to just music, also.
That's just my $0.02.
Best of Luck,
Scott
Message 14/56 23-Sep-02 @ 08:16 AM - RE: can't decide...
HARWARE
alesis mmt-8, cheap s/h mixer, cheap s/h delay X 2, cheap s/h multifx unit such as Zoom, a sampler and a synth such as a virus, nova, waldorf etc etc, plsu a keyboard, some midi leads & a cheap midi distribution box... that'll allow you to make tunes & play live - you can record the mixes into your pc and do whatever with them like burn to Cd etc.
SOFTWARE
a pc/mac running vst or logic or Sonar and a few VSTi freebie synths plus one main s/w synth like FM7 or something, and a s/w sampler such as exs24 or Halion or Kontakt etc... (there are freeware and cheapware s/w sampler too of course) - a special fast driver soundcard and a master keyboard and a few midi leads
Message 15/56 23-Sep-02 @ 08:24 AM - RE: can't decide...
One thing is that your hardware stuff can always integrate into a s/w setup in the future because with these fast soundcards i mentioned now you can route your outboard sampler or synth into your onboard software mixer and add fx etc and mix it in with any s/w synths & audio tracks.
why dontcha d/load a demo of Orion and try that too... and mebbe try Reason... VST & Reason combined in one with Rewire is also a great starter system, very versatile.
Message 16/56 23-Sep-02 @ 08:51 AM - RE: can't decide...
only thing is there you need a multi in card...
honestly...the power of a good soft setup cant really be rivaled at ALL...not cost effectively.
another thing...Im thinkin...I really dont think a sampler is so necessary in a soft setup, because in a program like Cubase SX or Sonar with in-place processing...you just drop your sounds into the arrange page and if you want to tweak em you just do it...no need for midi triggering really?
anyway...the one thing was...Id say hold off on the live idea for now..just because you otta focus on learning to put ideas together, engineer/mix, etc...before you are gonna have the material to 'play live'
BUT...if youre fully determined to do gigs, and you are the type that actually WILL do it, then its probably a good idea to have a mainly hardware based setup (but dont overlook the power of softsynths etc for sound generation/processing)
cool thing is...a program like wavelab...get it SCSI'd up to your PC, and you can bounce sounds back and forth...sample in your sampler, and then send it over to an editor (wavelab, soundforge, cool edit, wavesurgeon) tweak it..make who knows 10 different versions, then send em all back over to your sampler..>VOILA...ten new sounds to put in your arrangement
ME personally..I like looking at the screen...seeing a graphic display of the song structure, part placement, and note placement within those parts.
but theres also something to be said for the relative simplicity of a hardware sequencer...
tell you what...you really need to read the info that K has thrown together in the tech pages...
there is really no 'best' or 'right' way...and odds are youre gonna start with one thing and end up with another...its just the evolution of it all...
Ive been at this for about 5-6 years now and my setup has changed MANY times...
so...really..just dive right in...if you have some cash, do some research, and just try not to spend too much so you dont get stuck with anything
hardware is CHEAP right now, too...
Message 17/56 23-Sep-02 @ 10:11 AM - RE: can't decide...
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 18/56 23-Sep-02 @ 05:51 PM - RE: can't decide...
I do almost all my work in hardware. This is because I've always had a focus on live music. I used to do sequencing with CW and then load my sequences into a HW sequencer. Now I just use HW.
My advice, spend time with other muso's. watch what they do, their various combinations and styles. And see which appeals... truth is your personality may decide the method, you just need to see various methods.
If you're just getting started and you do not have a big budget: Go SW, but get a HW sampler and an MMT8 for live preformance. A3Kv2 and an MMT8 will cost less than $800 (that's a high estimate)... then make music in SW on the PC and sample your loops for the show. If shows keep coming and you get more into live performance, you can think about the larger more comprehensive live rig!
e
Message 19/56 23-Sep-02 @ 07:29 PM - RE: can't decide...
I understand where you're coming from e, this would be great for someone with experience of some sort.
But I don't agree with a complete newb getting a hardware sampler (especially the A3000...) right away. As a matter of fact, I strongly disagree.
Here's the reason why. I have a friend who asked me the a similar question two years ago: "I want to get into making industrial music, so I want a professional sampler to write some tracks".
Another stipulation: his computer was too old and too slow to run any software synths or samplers. Plus he is not good with computers, so upgrading was out of the question. And yet another requirement: it had to be cheap, about $600 or so.
So my challenge was to figure out which hardware box out there had everything built in that he needed to write tracks.
What it came down to was a used Ensoniq ASR-X. He had even seen one of his favorite bands using the X, so he was extremely biased towards it.
So he bought a used X, and I showed him the how to use it.
But it turns out the sampling was too much work for him, and he got tired of the small assortment of preset sounds.
He ran out of money and wasn't able or willing to upgrade it with a Hard Drive or get a Zip drive. So he couldn't save any samples. He no longer uses his X. His industrial music aspirations pretty much died. And I feel very guilty for not pushing him towards a keyboard with more built in sounds and keys...
To this day, he still laments over not getting the Triton, of which he loved the presets. But it was too much money, and still is.
So my advise still stands. A solid keyboard with a variety of bread & butter sounds built-in with a splash of modern electronic synth sounds, and a sequencer built-in. Expandibility, the ability to be used in a larger rig, with a computer, or live... a quality keyboard like the XP-50 or XP-60 is a GREAT way to start...
That's what I would tell my friend if I had a chance to answer the question all over again.
Here a few other keyboard options in the same vein with built-in sequencers:
Roland XP-50 <--- older
Roland XP-60 <--- newer with Techno expansion
Roland JX-305 <--- MC-505 with real keys
Roland DJ70-MKII
Korg Trinity
Korg Triton LE <--- top recommendation
Yamaha DJXII
Yamaha EX-5 or EX-7
Yamaha Motif
Quasimidi Sirius or Raven
Ensoniq ASR-10
Hope this helps. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. Please no viruses, people. :-)
Scott
synthysyzor@adelphia.net
Message 20/56 23-Sep-02 @ 07:33 PM - RE: can't decide...
you can still read the keyboards I listed. if not let me know, I'll email ya the info.
Scott
Message 21/56 23-Sep-02 @ 08:23 PM - RE: can't decide...
Im sorry man but it sounds to me like your buddy was just lacking initiative.
hell...a yamaha RS7000 is a solid all in one, too...even the stock sounds are ok!
my advice for a 'live' HW setup? RS7k (sampler, sequencer, some synth sounds) and a VirusKB (fucking $900 now!)
oh...
you know..to the original post...first step? BUDGET
what can you spend?
Message 22/56 23-Sep-02 @ 10:28 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 23/56 23-Sep-02 @ 10:31 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 24/56 24-Sep-02 @ 02:14 AM - RE: can't decide...
http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/
For example, Roland JX-305's are $400-$500 used, Roland XP-50's marginally more. Akai S2000's about $450 and S20 (miniature version of S2000) about $200. Quasimidi Sirius and Raven are around $600. Nice boards, FYI.
Scott
Message 25/56 24-Sep-02 @ 04:06 AM - RE: can't decide...
hmmm...honestly....gosh...I cant do it!
it just starts adding up. I mean...I am one that believes you should PAY for software, so...that adds up too
really otta take a look at reason or orion, and then a VST host for mixing
Message 26/56 24-Sep-02 @ 04:26 AM - RE: can't decide...
Message 27/56 24-Sep-02 @ 06:21 AM - RE: can't decide...
Message 28/56 24-Sep-02 @ 06:34 AM - RE: can't decide...
you can get an mpc200 xl for same much money, but i wouldnt recommned it cause it doesnt have fx, synths etc. if you have apc you can always get a soft setup too.. or did everyone told you that already?
Message 29/56 24-Sep-02 @ 06:38 AM - RE: can't decide...
Message 30/56 24-Sep-02 @ 07:45 AM - RE: can't decide...
and if you go to www.harmonycentral.com under the classifieds theres a guy selling one for $800
go to www.yamaha.com and have a look for specs and features
the RS7000 is a synth, sampler, and sequencer all rolled up into one. It is pretty powerful and therefore a bit complicated, but..if you wrote all your stuff with IT for now..you could 'go live' no sweat later on.
all you would really need on top of it is a controller keyboard as the attached one isnt velocity sensitive...
Message 31/56 24-Sep-02 @ 02:38 PM - RE: can't decide...
-Craig
Message 32/56 24-Sep-02 @ 08:27 PM - RE: can't decide...
thats...ahh thats still higher...
Message 33/56 24-Sep-02 @ 09:20 PM - RE: can't decide...
If his budget was a bit higher I'd say RS-7000 too.
-Craig
Message 34/56 24-Sep-02 @ 10:16 PM - RE: can't decide...
thats a fuckin STEAL!
Message 35/56 24-Sep-02 @ 10:47 PM - RE: can't decide...
I great piece of kit... and just complicated enough to remind the user that this MIDI business requires intelligence!
e
Message 36/56 24-Sep-02 @ 11:25 PM - RE: can't decide...
OH, NOW YOU TELL ME!
Message 37/56 27-Sep-02 @ 03:27 AM - RE: can't decide...
i got into music by first using fasttracker 2 and maz's $40 sample cd which is a super basic s/w seq but wicked (at least i think). anyway.. who cares about that, then i got the rm1x and it's just wicked.
the sounds are nothing special [some can be tweaked to sonic heaven... but don't execpt much]. but the thing is you can expand your setup effectively by using it as a sequencer (it's a wicked seq for live-ness).
anyway.. it's really cheap (like other people have said)... really surely under 500 us... check out ebay --it's your friend ;) [just dont' get hooked!]
and when you decide.. get back.. i don't know about everyone else but i'm really interested to hear what you got!
-j
ps: micro-edit rules.
Message 38/56 27-Sep-02 @ 08:01 AM - RE: can't decide...
About tckers.. man i used to have this one running on Amiga500.. cant remeber the name XXXXtrackers.. but not fast... I used the fasttracker on pc for a long time.... We use to make the beats on it ( in dos emulation- my soundcard was so crappy.. it wouldnt work higher then 22000hz 16bit) export it as a wave file and run 2 copies of windows media player.. one with the beats and other one with record on.. sometimes that wouldnt work either so we would record the beat to the tape and my friend would play his bass to the beat coming from the tape and record it to windows media player.. then go back to Dos and fix it in fasttracker.. good ole days...
Message 39/56 27-Sep-02 @ 06:24 PM - RE: can't decide...
haha.. yeah, i loved the tracker days...
and the rm1x was quirky at first... but like you said.. just need to spend some time.
-j
//so bored.. waiting for th ups guy to come with my mixer.
Message 40/56 27-Sep-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: can't decide...
Editing's a bitch, tho
psylichon
Message 41/56 30-Sep-02 @ 08:22 PM - RE: can't decide...
Also my friend and I used to make dance re-mixes by recording pieces of music from vinyl (we called 'em records back then) onto tape with the pause button. Try looping 4 measures by recording them over and over!!! Damn I was happy when they started making samplers.
e
Message 42/56 30-Sep-02 @ 11:42 PM - RE: can't decide...
reminds me of the times me and my buds would record ourselves playing instruments and yelling profane sh!t... the questions were whose boom box was going to take the abuse...
...and whether yo mamma was gonna beat yo ass if she heard it!
Message 43/56 01-Oct-02 @ 06:59 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 44/56 01-Oct-02 @ 08:25 PM - RE: can't decide...
in the files section at dancetech, download a couple of vsti.
read the tutorials at webmassiva.
muck around with that for a while = $0 spent. you might find you don't even like making music. you'll gain experience to use for asking further questions and prolly crank out a few tracks.
geez, guys, 6 million posts and none of you can sort him out with some freeware???
Message 45/56 01-Oct-02 @ 10:05 PM - RE: can't decide...
;)
e
Message 46/56 01-Oct-02 @ 10:10 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 47/56 02-Oct-02 @ 04:09 AM - RE: can't decide...
Message 48/56 02-Oct-02 @ 02:00 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 49/56 03-Oct-02 @ 09:00 PM - RE: can't decide...
would be a good cheap setup.Throw in a
cheap mixer and a consumer CD-R and you
could make some good stuff.Plus it would be
easy to use and you could play live with it
when you're ready.Those EPS/VFX era
sequencers are easy to use and very
powerful.The K station would give you some
nice new VA sounds and you could record
your demo on a CD-R like a phillips .You
could program just about any style with that
setup too.
- H
Message 50/56 03-Oct-02 @ 09:41 PM - RE: can't decide...
psylichon
Message 52/56 03-Oct-02 @ 10:36 PM - RE: can't decide...
how do i send midi to my printer? will my vsti convert rupees? (i owe a debt of gratitude here to h. whole thing really.)
Message 54/56 03-Oct-02 @ 11:32 PM - RE: can't decide...
Give Orion a try. It could teach you a lot about music! Cloud9 really improved his skills as time went by. It can work. You gotta start somewhere.
- there's always fruityloops!
Message 55/56 04-Oct-02 @ 11:37 PM - RE: can't decide...
Message 56/56 05-Oct-02 @ 11:33 PM - RE: can't decide...
psylichon
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